Seiler’s 8-minute intervals (Polarized)

[steveh67]

@EagleAllan Yes, the longer VO2max intervals with short rest do seem to allow improvements, while the easy endurance days allow me to recover and do my best on the interval days. I went from 270 watts to 325 watts FTP in 2.5 years most recently, coming back from a six month layoff due to injury.

In the early base phase I do short intervals, e.g. 5x and 7x 4/2, to build up my tolerance. As I improve, I move to mid-length intervals (6x 5/2 and 5x 6/2) in the late build and early build phases, and eventually get to 4x 8/2s in the late build phase. Depending on my mood, I sometimes do 2x indoor intervals sessions per week or else one interval session mid-week and then a hard (spikey power) group ride on Saturdays, with a long easy ride on Sunday.

In the specialization phase I switch to shorter high power intervals, like Ronnestadt 30/15s, which more closely resemble a CX workload. When trying to peak for CX Nationals, I will often do block training of 5 days of interval sessions (I have tried both long intervals and short interval workouts) one week, followed by two weeks with only one interval workout and reduced volume endurance sessions.

When race season comes, I usually back off of mid-week intervals in order to recover for the following weekend’s races, especially if I did two races the prior weekend.

I built a spreadsheet to track my average heart rate during intervals. Seiler’s goal is to maximize training time between 90% and 95% of max. heart rate. For the 8/2s, I usually don’t hit 90% in the first interval and only midway through successive intervals (https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/ride/346112809694), but I don’t think I could go harder and finish the intervals at the same power as when I started, so I usually end up with 13-15 minutes in Seiler zone 3 range per workout. Seiler’s twitter posts indicate that he is getting much more time than that in each Zone 3 workout, so now I am considering going to 5x or 6x 8/2s to try and approach the workloads that I would expect to see in a 45 min CX race.

I read somewhere (not Seiler) that when you can complete two successive workouts with an average heart rate 2 bpm less than the previous workout, you can increase the workload. That means you can either increase the duration of the interval or increase the work power. Watch out for signs of overtraining, though. It is still possible with polarized training, if you increase the weekly volume too much.

And you are correct, that everything varies depending on the individual.

[Thorsten]

@steveh67

In the specialization phase I switch to shorter high power intervals, like Ronnestadt 30/15s, which more closely resemble a CX workload.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Stephen_Seiler/publication/320592077_Session_3_Interval_training_prescription_physiology_and_perception/links/59ef4716aca2721ca5e9325d/Session-3-Interval-training-prescription-physiology-and-perception.pdf
on page 19 the unpublished experiment “Traditional versus “micro-interval” prescription: Physiological and perceptual responses to “maximal session effort” is mentioned. Does anybody know if it published yet ? I couldn’t find it.
For i can say 30/15 is more or less my default HIIT protocol, because my focus in on CX. However during time trail session i switch to longer intervals. Last season i did also the most HIIT session for time trail with 30/15 and my results was very good, but not as good as the power output of the intervals might be promised. This maybe consistent with the presented experiment, but the results of the tests in post test week 11 are not published. Does anybody have this data ?

[Bioteknik]

Im curious if he was doing 75 min at 240 in one of those. Pretty good “slow” pace if so. He had stated his 60 min test is now right around 300. Although he probably actually knows his true LT1. The itch to buy a lactate tester

[martinheadon]

@steveh67

In the early base phase I do short intervals, e.g. 5x and 7x 4/2, to build up my tolerance. As I improve, I move to mid-length intervals (6x 5/2 and 5x 6/2) in the late build and early build phases, and eventually get to 4x 8/2s in the late build phase. Depending on my mood, I sometimes do 2x indoor intervals sessions per week or else one interval session mid-week and then a hard (spikey power) group ride on Saturdays, with a long easy ride on Sunday.

Do you keep that completely polarised? So it’s just hard interval sessions / group rides and everything easy? Or do you put in any tempo / sweetspot sessions as well?

For me, the issue is with finding the time to do a polarised model.

For the sake of argument, take week 2 of Sustained Power Build mid volume. That’s 457 TSS. If I did 2 Seiler workouts, that gives me approximately 160 TSS. To make up the remaining 297 TSS for the week with easy riding, I’d need to do 7 hours riding at 0.65 IF.

I like the idea of doing the Seiler intervals as your main dose of intensity, but I struggle with the “everything else easy” concept.

[Bioteknik]

I try to alternate up my endurance riding. Some at the .63 to .65, and some around .7. I try to get my long ride as close to .7 as possible, but in the end, it will probably still take more time to get the same TSS using a polarized model. Also if going by time in zone, you should only be doing 2 of the 4x8 min sessions if you are training roughly 10 hours a week, unless you’re going to follow Matt Fitzgeralds spinoff of 80:20 where they prescribe up to 20% by time as intensity.

[bbarrera]

@martinheadon

I like the idea of doing the Seiler intervals as your main dose of intensity, but I struggle with the “everything else easy” concept.

+1

Good analysis using TSS. Time limitations are real. There is more than one way to get fast. Mixing things up is good.

[steveh67]

I typically train 8-12 hours per week. Everything other than interval workouts is done in Seiler’s zone 1.

But, I had started out back in 2012 using Chris Carmichael’s Time Crunched Athlete training at 4-6 hours per week. His plan includes HIIT, sweet spot, and threshold workouts, but very little Z1 aerobic workouts. I was able to do the first couple of CX laps at the same pace, but my lap times got progressively slower throughout the remainder of the 45 min races. Same results using TR sweet spot training the following year.

The only way to sustain a certain level of exertion for a given time is either to slow down or else train your aerobic system so that you burn more fat at the desired power. My understanding is that few fat burning adaptations occur from sweet spot or threshold (those workouts build muscular endurance).

I was lucky enough to be able to add training volume to meet my race goals. Even at a lower weekly workload, polarized training might still work for you. My opinion is that 4x 8 min VO2 intervals will also improve your muscular endurance, so perhaps no tempo/threshold training is needed.

[martinheadon]

@steveh67

I typically train 8-12 hours per week. Everything other than interval workouts is done in Seiler’s zone 1.

@steveh67

I was lucky enough to be able to add training volume to meet my race goals. Even at a lower weekly workload, polarized training might still work for you. My opinion is that 4x 8 min VO2 intervals will also improve your muscular endurance, so perhaps no tempo/threshold training is needed.

Thanks! Unfortunately my work schedule is unpredictable as I’m a freelancer - I might be really busy for a month and only have time for a few hours, or I might be completely free all week and be able to spend 16 hours on the bike if I wanted to.

I think the other main difficulty is finding both the time and the discipline to do one long (2hr+) Seiler Z1 ride each week. Realistically that’s most likely to happen at the weekend, and I might have to ditch a club ride or ride with friends in order to do it. It might be possible but I’d really have to knuckle down and be prepared to make some sacrifices.

[Thorsten]

@martinheadon

Thanks! Unfortunately my work schedule is unpredictable as I’m a freelancer - I might be really busy for a month and only have time for a few hours, or I might be completely free all week and be able to spend 16 hours on the bike if I wanted to.

calls for block training.- From my experience If you have not a lot time you accumulate HIT or SIT sessions and if you are free then collect miles. I’m also self employed and thins is one reason why I like blocks. And by the way, after a HIIT block LIT is pure fun

[martinheadon]

Oh great, now I have to read the “block vs linear periodization” thread and all the linked articles!

[Thorsten]

is more about to try how much HIIT in a row is tolerable. And in case of races how much time for recovery is needed to grain a good form again. Each HIIT block is overreaching that needs to digest.
Of course, as always theory helps. But the existing evidence is not so much.
If you have a period wieh plenty time, you don’t have much to lose if you experiment with more HIIT I think,.

[EagleAllan]

Thanks for this, really interesting to see a practical experience of Seiler!

[ValeCyclist]

@T_Field

I think the problem may be, in part that the ramp test or 20 min test doesn’t correlate very well with a true 1 hr power. Below Is my run at Lamarck during SSB2 ![31%20PM|690x182](upload://oNkJP3ezbtWErOxno3cQeEujuHe.png
My pulse started out at about 88% of max and finished out at 92% of max. I think my ramp test is artificially high, the workout could be equivalent to the 4x8 recommended by Seiler based on pulse.

For me this is absolutely true. I did a 1 hour test today and averaged 246W. I can guarantee that if I do a ramp test this weekend I’d get an FTP of 255 to 260, my last one was 257W which I knew was way too high. But, big but, this only serves to emphasise what Seiler himself says…we are all individual. Now I have this hour figure I can do another shorter test and work out my personal percentage reduction to make.

[ValeCyclist]

@bbarrera

+1

Good analysis using TSS. Time limitations are real. There is more than one way to get fast. Mixing things up is good.

I thought I’d struggle with this as I’d be bored stiff of an easy session after 20 mins but when you know why you’re doing it the easy sessions seem somehow more doable. Plus, the 4 x 8s hurt so you look forward to the break

[bbarrera]

Long easy rides outside are enjoyable. Any easy ride over 90 minutes in the garage is torture. Try doing traditional base 1 high volume on your trainer

[T_Field]

I’m currently doing 3 2 hr rides/week fasted at 65% of my max heart rate. I’m working my way through Coach Chad’s VO2 max progression. Once completed I will do an hr test and proceed with Seiler’s intervals. One group ride/weekend

[martinheadon]

Today: Log In to TrainerRoad

Wouldn’t want to do that day in day out.

[bbarrera]

Try a week of those (4) on trad base 1 HV

Never doing that inside again

[steveh67]

So after listening to Steve Neal talk about adding more tempo riding (HR < 83% of max) (FLO cycling podcast), reading Graham Stewart’s take on adding tempo to replace some L1/L2 rides (https://www.graemestewart.com/polarised-bike-training-over-winter/), and reading the training peaks article about Matthew Hayman’s Paris Roubaix training (Mathew Hayman Career Analysis Part Two: The Making of a Classics Rider | TrainingPeaks), I am starting to wonder if I need to add some long duration tempo training in with my L1/L2 rides and 8 min VO2 max sessions…

[Thorsten]

What i did in early spring was "long temp"o rides. 2- 2.5 hours that was pretty stable at around 78% HRmax. In the Coogan zones this is clearly L3, but maybe still in upper polarized zone 1.

My problem here is that i’m not so sure about VT1/LI1. I know the estimates based on HRmax or FTP, but if I look at my HR drift during the season. the “drift threshold” is not fixed, neither in relation to HR nor to FTP.
The best idea that was mentioned in one of podcast was that if no heard rate drift appears (over what time ?) , you are probably still in zone 1.
Working in upper zone 1 from time to time, may add a extra stimulus, but is not to hard to compromise the HIT.

The detection of the real location LT1/VT1 is still a miracle for me.

For sure it already added somewhere, but is useful here anyway. Xert made graphic that compares the zone models