Recent Flo podcast with Steve Neal

Training
70

I’ve been thinking a lot on this; I love TR but they do have an issue in that they are geared up to bow at altar of FTP
Someone writes in ti say they did a ramp tets and it was 40w higher and its high gravies all round
Some one does SSB and FTP is flat in next ramp test and its a crisis…
It’s like weight watchers ! You might eat much healthier but if your weight does not drop its considered a failure…
That’s the downside to a ‘remote’ training platform; upside is of ciuyrse its fantastic and amazing VFM

But one needs to realise that just using FTP as a ‘’grade’ is flawed
With WKO5, on the hero bar, you have 5 metrics; mFTP, weight, Vo2, TTE and Stamina
So your FTP may not move but your time to exhaustion goes from 30 mins to 45 min. That’s a win
Or stamina goes from 66% to 82%
TR can’t show that *yet) so they only way they can show progress (and keep you subscribed) is keep pushing the FTP up and up and up; amazing when it works but eventually you hit a wall and a coach needs to step in

71

Here’s what I would add/amend to your comment: dollar-for-dollar, TrainerRoad is the most cost efficient way to get faster. I think Nate said that on a podcast recently and I wholeheartedly agree.

Also, TR is more that just its training plans. I work with a coach and still subscribe to TR and have no intention of canceling. Why?

– I love the performance analytics – much better than TrainingPeaks (in my opinion)
– I love the workout library
– I love the custom workout builder
– Using the app to control my workouts is a second-to-none Ux in my opinion.

My 2c.

72

My wild assumption was that’s Canadian dollars, since he’s based in Canada, so roughly $450 USD. This is very much inline with other US coaches in terms of pricing and the relationship (conversations, power analysis, diet recommendations, plan changes, etc.)

If it’s USD, it’s on the high end of what I’ve seen but not ridiculous.

74

Agreed on all points; TR and the team are creating something special
The eureka moment will be if they can use AI and machine learning to be Xert like and have reactive plans
So its not week to week, but day to day
You wake up and your HRV is low so instead of the planned Vo2 session its automatically replaced with Baxter or a rest day

77

I really enjoy the show - keep doing your thing Chris! You can’t make everyone happy!

78

Arthur Lydiard used to say that you want to get those “bread and butter aerobic runs” as fast as possible, and that it would only take a bit of sharpening to get the high end back – in the 1960s.

For Lydiard, that “b & b” range was what we would think of as low tempo – 76-80% of FTP. His runners would do that day in, day out, and have a couple of “3/4 effort” days a week – what we would think of as 88-92% of FTP.

If you take a VLAMax perspective, yes, it’s riding a lot of low-mid tempo to lower VLAMax and raise the aerobic level. The downside of this is that you are also going to be lowering anaerobic capacity to do this, so where a TT’er can just grind this stuff all winter and be happy as a clam, a puncheur will have to selectively working some high intensity now and then to not rob themselves of their main card to play in races. Exactly what intensity and how much would need a coach, or a few years of trial and error to see what works for you.

When I’ve done lots of mid-tempo over the winter, I can usually get over my regular VO2 training hill at 385w – which is my best 10min power, and the “steady state” level I usually settle into on 4min, 400w intervals, when I look between the little surge at the bottom of the hill and then the kick over the top. What I can’t do after all the tempo is do the surges, so I’m a few seconds slower and the average power isn’t there.

A few weeks of :30 work, and the upper end comes back – though I suspect that if you are a 45+, you shouldn’t let that stuff sleep too long over the winter.

79

What have you got your decay set to in Xert. I have mine set to “Small” and do lots of low intensity riding and the amount I do seems to balance the decay so the software keeps my TP restively constant.

80

Newbie question… How do we know what our max HR is? I assumed that I should look back over the past year and see what my highest recorded HR was… (I hit 193 at a crit in july where the temp made it to 91 deg F) so 83% of 193 is 160. I’ve done some 20 minute sweet spot stuff with TR and i’ve never made it past 157 hr… I’m 34 years old male. Idk what that all says about me… maybe i should try stepping up my sweet spot TR workouts by 1-2% next time… or maybe i need to divert a little focus to more VO2 so that next ramp test i have a better chance of raising FTP to something where my sweet spot comes closer to 160 HR.

81

If training load is moving the CTL equivalent in Xert up, then “small” decay will keep the signature fairly constant – but you do need to do some hard :10 and 1:00 efforts every week or two to keep the high end up so you’re getting an accurate signature.

If training load is not moving chronic load up, then the signature will decay even on “small.”

83

I agree. I keep my Training Load ramping up at about 2/3 points a week. If I don’t it does decay slowly

84

This, to me, is why I started working with Steve.

I have been an athlete my whole life – I have not, however, been an endurance athlete. The point is, that I know what my 25 year old body could do and recover from; I know what my 35 year old body could do and recover from; and I am still learning what my 45 year old body can do a recover from.

However, regardless of my age and level of aerobic base conditioning TrainerRoad would prescribe the same plan. That plan would work – but it would work to varying degrees based on a myriad of variables.

Coach Chad - who I seriously think is brilliant - comes at this with 30 years of experience. And Coach Chad, to his absolute credit, repeatedly says on the podcast that when we’re feeling fatigued, we need to alter our plan.

In my business I sometimes call this the “curse of knowledge” - and what I mean by this is that Coach Chad just knows things that he takes for granted without out understanding that he’s taking them for granted. This isn’t a knock on him. Everyone who has deep, lengthy experience in subject matter is guilty of this.

So when Coach Chad says, “If you’re tired, dial-it-back/alter/adjust/etc.,” he dead-on right. But somebody like me with 30 years of athletic experience…but only 3 years of endurance experience…and no true expertise in this topic becomes paralyzed by indecision, fear and paranoia.

Indecision = how do I adjust?
Fear = what if I fuck it up and get slower?
Paranoia = I put all my free time into this shit, and I want to maximize the results.

So what do I do? I workout harder than I truly should because that feels like the thing to do. I can’t possibly get slower if I’m killing myself, right?

What else do I do? I jump on this message board to trade insights with you all. However, you all are different ages with different levels of aerobic conditioning built into you. And this whole message board is a f*cking monument to the indecisiveness and paranoia we all feel. It’s truly a helpful resource, but you’ve got to learn a lot to glean a lot. And at the end of that…we’re still not experts and we’re still all different.

Coach Chad, for instance, is 3 years older than me (I think). But he has 30+ years of aerobic base conditioning built into his body. I bet he can recover like the 35 year old version of me. Maybe even the 25 year old version? I have no idea. None.

But I do know I’m going into a hole every 4-6 weeks. But despite that, I can BARELY convince myself to take the foot off the gas…because I’m paranoid. And then some dude at roughly my height/weight/FTP jumps on the board and says he’s winning races every weekend… and I’m like, huh? So what do I do? I turn my Sweet Spot workout into a Threshold workout – or my Threshold into a Vo2 workout. I bet a TON of you have done the same thing…

The thing Steve has done for me, more than anything, is given me the confidence to go low. Because I’m not guessing anymore.

TrainerRoad’s stated mission is to make you faster. Well I was getting faster for sure - they get 5 stars from me on that. But then I’d get slower. And then I’d get faster again. Two-steps-forward-one-step-back, you all know the drill…

Well now I’m getting faster a bit faster than I would have without the help. I’ve got the ‘curse of knowledge’ inputting workouts into my calendar - which is cool and definitely a privilege.

If TrainerRoad could figure out how to build this type of AI into their already great product…holy cow. That’s the grail. That’s also a really tough problem to solve.

I’m cheering for them. And, as I’ve said before - despite working with a coach, I am still going to be a subscriber. There is more to their product that just a training plan.

My lunch is finished and time to get back to work. See you all out there :metal:

88

I do a race with a 50min climb each year, which usually gives me a good LTHR number.

However, for Lydiard “bread and butter” (which may also be Fat Max raising training), I go with “what is the HR I can sustain for regular 60-90 min blocks each day, several days in a row, without feeling that I’m having to push.” I’ve found that’s 130 (my HR peak is 170, my LTHR is 153). That usually ends up being about 80% of FTP.

89

Its hard coaching yourself, and having the discipline to stick with a plan! Training fundamentals include the idea of individualization, which means some trial and error need to be applied. Either you do the experimenting, or you hire a coach to experiment. Inserting an aerobic endurance block ahead of your A race produced results, however nobody will ever know if you maximized the training investment. And back on the AI topic, I think what you needed wasn’t a day-to-day call like Xert, but rather forcing you into an aerobic endurance block to come back into form while picking up some minor aerobic gains (unlike vo2 and sprint work, the aerobic gains take a long time to maximize).

Thanks for sharing the journey/experience!

90

Wow, what a post! You’ve basically summed up precisely where I am, and how I feel at the moment. I just couldn’t have written it so succinctly. Thanks for all you’ve contributed to this thread :+1:

91

That’s extremely expensive for the same type of service you’d get from a UK based coach.

92

Chris, that was one of the best podcasts I’ve listened to all year. Not sure what show @BespokeBarry was listening to but you asked all the questions I was asking in my head as I was listening. Great job!

93

This. I’ve gone through a couple of full TR progressions at this point and as a masters athlete, the general base, build, and specialty for road racing got me good for the first half of a season and then i was cooked for the summer events.

This was prior to the ramp test, however. My FTP was estimated way too high. The ramp test eventually lowered it and I had a more controlled progression.

Still too much intensity. So this past season I focused on high volume, sustained power plans. Lots of sub threshold work. Lots of TSS until the build phase. I also kept intense days to only two a week during build. I’ve become a different rider/racer.

I would question periodization as well. We forget that cycling is an aerobic sport and, like @batwood14 mentioned, short intervals are mostly aerobic. Steve Neal is building aerobic capacity first and only sharpening the sword in short blocks. In my opinion this is same concept promoted by Weber, Olbrecht, and Seiler. Yes, we need to get specific but most the year should be spent on growing aerobic capacity, layer upon layer.

94

Great podcast. Thanks Chris. The topic of Fatmax doesn’t get a lot of coverage, but is very important for those of us riding longer distances.

Both times I’ve ridden Leadville I’ve faded in the last few hours because I ran out of energy - in large part because my stomach rebelled about 6 hours in, meaning I had to ride the last 4 hours with no food. … and I’m generally a carb centric athlete.

Steve’s recommendations on diet and training are pretty simple ones - in concept- to put into practice. I’ll need to give it a go.

:+1:t3::+1:t3: On the podcast

95

I find all this very extremely fascinating.

I have done two test sessions with Bruce Knob -2 (2x20@85%) and Bruce Knob(2x30@85%). The amount of power I could maintain differed greatly, and it was interesting to see my HR creep up. In the 2x20 min I could maintain close to 300W (97% intensity) and not drift far from 150HR, but with the 2x30min the story was completely different. The first 30 min interval I was able to maintain around 150 HR @ 275W (90% intensity) but had to go down to 265W (85%) in the second one.

HR also remained very high during the rest interval (compared to Vo2 max for example, where I seem to “recover” more)

I listened to both of the podcast episodes and read most of this thread, but would still like to confirm regarding how to progress using this method. My understanding is you mostly progress by increasing the duration of the interval and not the power, but what is the OK sign to increase the time in zone?

Lets say I do a session of 2x20min the first week at 300 watts and my HR drifts from 150 to 160 by the end of the second interval. Should I decrease the intensity until I can finish both intervals at 150HR and then work my way up the intensity?

or

Should I completely disregard power now and just progress by increasing time in HR zone?

As being a TR user, it feels difficult to anchor myself to a power number, as if I only use HR, will I get the hoped training stimulus just by working in the correct HR zone?

I am going all over places, but if some smart individual has an easy to understand progression figured out, please do share!

96

This is why I bought a power meter, and stopped using HR.

I only use HR now as a secondary “cross check,” and even then only under very controlled conditions. HR can be highly variable, and inconsistent. Its part of the input into the engine that produces power-at-the-pedals. Keep in mind HR is only one of several “inputs” to producing power-at-the-pedals, and HR can go up or down because of many other factors (dehydration, heat, work stress, not enough rest, training too hard, etc).