Power is also only one variable. Power + HR is better than power or HR alone.
Having followed both power and HR for years, it is clear to me that HR is secondary and not primary.
Power is output.
The input to making power has many variables, and HR is only one. Are you tracking the other inputs to making power? Do you try and normalize HR when its hot and your heart has to work harder to support sweating to reduce heat?
Yes power is output.
It is a result of the interaction of many other factors that result in power generation. You have to maximize all the input factors such as, aerobic conditioning (heart and lungs), muscular strength, cadence, efficiency, positioning, etc, to maximize the output. Output is a result of the inputs. Looking at the output only gives you no clue as to the other factors affecting that power number. How do you maximize output by ignoring the inputs?
I agree. So many poeple put too much emphasis on power, FTP, W/kg.
No argument here, and I clearly said HR is secondary. That means I train to power and yet still collect and use other data (RPE, HR, cadence, temperature, wind, body position, hydration, fueling, fitness level).
Currently my opinion has shifted to power being a secondary metric for training.
Cycling is an aerobic sport and thus you measure the training effect through monitoring HR, VT or lactate levels. Power is merely a testing measure to see how effective your aerobic training has been.
I just listened to this podcast yesterday during my 3 hr endurance ride. My understanding is that your do your sweet spot intervals, he was talking about 3 x 20 min, and adjust the intensity to keep your pulse at the appropriate level. Over time, what is supposed to happen is that you will reach the ability to maintain the same pulse alll through all the intervals. Interesting discussion, personally I don’t wish to eat a 30 30 40 diet to try to improve fatmax.
I have experienced this twice now whilst trying to follow the 40k TT plan. I’d turn up to do workouts (or worse races) and just have dead legs. In both cases, and more so this year, switching to doing longer less intense intervals and much more volume at lower power saw my legs come back, power in races rise and much more motivation.
I no longer do the Ramp Test or 20mins x .95 as setting all your zones/training based on one test and number is now becoming really outdated, instead I use WKO4 and since June had great success using Xert as well, I’m holding on to my TR subscription, but will have to make a decision when it’s up for renewal, as I really, really want them to drop the dogma that FTP is everything and move to a more personalised system like others such as Sufferfest and Xert are doing. I’ll look forward to listening to this podcast tomorrow.
I really found his hand analogy helpful. If you eat a serving size of your hand in CHO, eat a serving size of your hand in Protein
Maybe we just have varying mileages, as it were, but I’ve found HR and power to be fairly consistent together. Agreed that there are variables, but barring illness, between weekday rides in the same room with the same bike, same fan, within 5 degrees of temperature etc, I really don’t think my HR/power relationship is inconsistent to any significant degree.
So while I’m doing these as regular turbo sessions, I find the 83% ceiling a useful rule of thumb.
I’ve been primarily following Joe Friel’s training advice, and only use HR as primary during very early base. Friel recommends switching to power relatively early (for me) in base - about a week or two into my early base.
Trainer in the garage, so temps for me vary widely just like riding outside. Plus I have allergies, that often act like illness. But ya, if I artificially control the horizontal and vertical to make everything same-same, then Power-to-HR is fairly consistent over short spans of time, although I can see a 3-5bpm change just in body position. And it HR definitely trends down over a season, typically by late summer I see a 5-10bpm drop in HR for the same sweet spot/tempo/aerobic endurance workout. So no, I don’t find the 83% ceiling all that useful. To my eyes it seems a little “belt and suspenders” for folks that tend to go too hard all the time (if told to ride between 140-180W, they ride at 179W for the full interval).
No, I’m saying that if I get too much cardiac drift in intervals Z3 or below, I should knock off the power, because I could be starting to tax the wrong energy system. Hence the idea of 75% (for endurance) and 83% (for tempo) as ceilings - not targets.
I’ve done my share of 2+ hour rides in the (dry) heat, and I get cardiac drift when riding both in the garage and outside when the temp is 95-100F / 35-38C. And that is most likely because of higher sweat rate. I’m not concerned with the energy system in those conditions. The only other time I see cardiac drift is in early base, after taking a month off.
Well, yes. But that’s over a lengthy period of time that you track, similar to tracking weight. I’m talking about consistency from Tuesday to Thursday.
If I’m not getting close to 83% max HR on tempo intervals, and it happens in repeated sessions, I’ll knock the power up a bit and see how it goes.
The examples that Steve Neal usually reference someone with a fairly high FTP and low LTP, the common example being the guy having a 300 watts FTP and a LTP of ~140 watts?
What about athletes that have low FTP and fairly decent LTP? In my case my FTP is 190 watts and my LTP is 145 watts. Should I focus on further improving my aerobic base or should I work more on lifting that FTP? If so, what would be the best way to go about it?
This topic generated a lot of interest for me because I have followed TR plans for a couple of years and I always inadvertently burn out by the end of the build phase. I would have to take a couple of weeks off and when I finally return to riding/training I would be pretty much back to where I started.
Getting really frustrated with the cycle, which is why I am looking to change things up this year and see how I can push bigger numbers.
I enjoy the typical fast group rides where everyone is trying to rip your legs off and also longer rides that are over 100 mile/ 160 km.
My weakness right now are the longer rides. My fitness is suited for those short hard 80km rides, but once I’m past a certain distance / time, the level of enjoyment on the bike drops inversely. Right now I’m planning for a 180 km rides with some friends and I’m doing more of the long tempo/sweetspot work usually around 85% of max heart rate to prepare for it.
At the same time, I am also looking at a long term goal to grow my FTP. I haven’t been able to push past a 200 watt FTP (for reference i usually hover around 60-61kg) and I would like to breakthrough that.
I’d say you need to build your aerobic base more, if you are getting burned out during the build phase (Which on TR have a lot of threshold and above), it sounds like you’re trying to build a house on sand. One of the issues I have with the TR base plans is that a lot of the interval lengths are a bit short, I switched to doing longer intervals and more endurance riding (you have to discipline yourself not to go too hard on these) and found I improved a lot.
Instead of focusing on pushing FTP upwards, try to focus on increasing your TTE (Time To Exhaustion) you can do this a number of ways, but a fairly simple way is to set a goal wattage target (usually around 60mins) and build up to it, your sweetspot wattage is a good place to start, start with 4 x 15 mins, then when you get comfortable with that, it often only takes a few sessions, progress the length of the intervals or shorten the recoveries. Keep an eye on heart rate for the intervals, you don’t want a large discrepancy between the first and last interval, once they’re similar then progress. There’s a really good webinar on this on the WKO4 youtube channel, too many people (and software programs/apps) focus on FTP being everything, but increasing other metrics such as TTE are potentially much more powerful to a rider.
What has worked for me is to do one or two (solo) training rides a week, focusing on power and growing power over time. A typical outside route has 2 hours of pushing the pedals hard, working from say 80% FTP up to 95% FTP over a couple months. I’ll also try and do an even longer 3-5 hour weekend ride every 2 or 4 weeks. Fueling is important, make sure you are getting enough carbs in your diet and while on bike.
After doing that for a couple months during base, I can usually go out and enjoy doing 100 mile / 160km group rides at a high percentage of FTP (with an IF of .85 - .90). Those metrics are easily accessible to anyone, no need to use TTE.
For inside training see Greased_Flea reply above. The TR workout library has longer intervals if you want to do it inside. As an example, lets say you want to work up to 60 minutes sweet spot. You could keep total sweet spot time at 60 minutes and try to quickly progress out to a long 60-min interval and if feeling really ambitious keep going longer:
- 4x15 (Tallac +2)
- 3x20 (Ecliplse)
- 2x30 (Wright Peak)
- 1x45 (Reynolds -2)
- 1x60 (White)
- 1x70 (Leavitt +3)
- 1x80 (Echo +3)
- 1x90 (Phoenix +1)
- 1x105 (Polar Bear +1)
Anything longer than that I start doing long solo tempo rides. Oh, and if you need to start off easier, try something like this progression before going with long SS intervals above.
- 3x12 (Geiger)
- 3x15 (Tallac)
- 2x25 (Eclipse +1)
- 1x50 (Echo -1)
I just did it today. Max Heart Rate is 188. Current TR FTP is 297 at a 20 min test. I think FTP is closer to low 300 but everyday is different.
I did 4x15 minute intervals to see ( Fish -2). 288,288,298,288 or something. HR was 145, 148, 153, 155 for the intervals. Staying below the 156, 83% of HR max.
If i extended out the intervals another 5 minutes, HR might of drifted out of range on the last one. This aren’t terrible but the last one usually hurts pretty good. I find doing these intervals all year long are important for me as a self coached athlete who follows some the high volume plans of TR in a general sense.
Damn that’s impressive. I struggle to keep my HR under 155 on these and my max is about 5 beats under yours and your percentage of FTP is higher than I attempt these. How old are you and how long have you been training?