Yup. I’ll be lowering most of my workouts in SSB so they are actually sweet spot and not threshold workouts. Take a look at SSB low volume. Hardly a SS workout to be found - they are all threshold - especially if the ramp test overestimates FTP (which it does for me)
2 Likes
Usually agree with most of what you post but this one has me stumped.
If ramp overestimates FTP then you need to fix that first. And to be fair, SSB-1 is six weeks starting with tempo and then sweet spot. Your complaint seems focused on SSB-2 and we both know low volume plan trades off intensity for volume. Why not go traditional base instead?
1 Like
Yeah - I’m planning to take my next ramp test result and knock it down by 5%. Maybe more depending on how the workouts go.
And yes, I was looking at SSB 2. I should have clarified. Same comment also applies however to many workouts that TR calls “sweet spot” in the 90s %. These end up being more like threshold workouts for me. Lowering my ramp test FTP is also the way to address this.
1 Like
stating the obvious - the TR SS workouts are sweet spot if you have a good estimate of FTP (or manually adjust). For all you ramp test overachievers keep in mind there are people like me that underachieve. Sometimes the ramp gives me a low estimate and I reject it. One time the ramp gave me 195W and I was doing sweet spot using something like 225W FTP. If I used the underestimated value my SS work would tempo, and vo2 work would be threshold. And I’d be underachieving! There are outliers on any of the common tests (ramp, 8-min, 20-min).
2 Likes
I think the thing to pay attention to is what your HR is when doing TR SS. I would bet that for a lot of people their HR is LT or higher for at least half of every interval especially those that have a higher anaerobic contribution to their ramp test. I heard Seiler just say this recently as well. If you start out in base but ride for 5 hours and end up in LT HR it no longer is a base ride at the end. Steve mentions the same concept. Is it really sub threshold if your HR rises to threshold and above before the end? Probably not.
4 Likes
I was listening to the podcast and thinking the same thing - it was the first time I had ever heard Coach Chad talk about anything other than FTP dictating your ability to race from a fitness perspective - and what he was saying is VERY much in line with Steve’s philosophy: if you build your aerobic engine to the point that you can rely on oxygen for longer, you dip into you glycogen stores much less and you recover from hard efforts much quicker.
I have noticed a lot of people over the year(s) on this board lamenting that their FTP went down after a period of base training. Much of this, in my opinion, is due to TR’s singular adherence to FTP as a marker of fitness (at least in the software) - but I would submit that regardless of your FTP (and whatever protocol you use to measure it), after a period of base training you “true” threshold power has gone up, your lower threshold power has gone up (Seiler would call this MLSS1) and your ability to recover from hard efforts has increased. In short, you’re becoming a better, faster rider - there just isn’t a simple, neat metric to quantify it.
I was really surprised, encouraged and impressed to hear that discussion yesterday.
What I have heard Chad say before is, “the broader the base, the higher you can build” - this is what that means… and FTP of 300 with a high FatMax vs. and FTP of 300 with a lack of a well developed aerobic engine are two very, very different racers. I have experienced the latter, and have been working on the former for the last six months… the difference is incredible.
10 Likes
If you think you’re a “high tester” like me - you might try do a ramp test with 3 minute steps instead of 1 minute steps, and take 80% of your peak one minute power as your FTP from that test. The sugar burners (again, like me…or formerly me) will have their sugar burned off well before they can achieve the heights of one minute stages.
If you think your FTP is above 275-ish, I’d start at 125w and ramp up in 3min/25w intervals until failure. If you’re a man under 150lbs, or a woman…I believe the protocol is different. He covered it in his first FLO podcast and you can listen to it there.
Doing the TR prescribed ramp test: I hit a peak 1min power of 404W * .75 = FTP 303
Doing the 3min/step ramp test: I hit a peak 1min power of 350W (which I actually held for 1:45)… 350w * .8 = FTP 280
That’s a big difference and what led to my chronic over-reaching on TR. Furthermore, I went out two days later and set my ERG to 280 (after a good warmup) and rode until exhaustion… I made it 1:03:00 - which solidified the fact that I need to base my training off of 280 rather than 303. I’m currently using 285.
I’m actually thinking of taking a TR ramp test soon as an experiment to see where I would land now. The last time I took a TR ramp test was June 13th.
4 Likes
My aerobic capacity is biggest weakness, and so ramp test is inconsistent. Sometimes good estimates, sometimes the opposite of you and it estimates too low.
Ramp test is a maximum aerobic power (MAP) test, and I use it as an estimate for maximum 5-minute vo2 power. I’ll keep doing it for that reason, and because it’s fairly easy to do and recover from so it doesn’t impact training.
Certainly both Xert and WKO(4/5) forecast ftp very well.
I have become more and more impressed with Xert the more I use it. The planner is weak by comparison with TR but of course Xert’s selling point is that sessions should be dynamic based on current inputs.
3 Likes
I’ve been considering picking up a used Garmin 520 to give xert a go. I see a lot of strong riders I race against on zwift using it on and their interval workouts are much less structured and more free form, which is my preference vs chasing power targets. How do you find it for workouts?
It does concern me that it’s seems a bit too easy to get caught up in chasing breakthroughs though…
+1 to this. I really like the Xert fitness tracker, FTP estimator - it takes a little time to understand how to use the FTP decay based on what phase of training you’re in…but when pairing Xert and TrainerRoad I feel like I have a much better view of progress, and and unbeatable library of workouts.
4 Likes
Personally I do not do the Xert workouts as I am currently coached.
However what I do see is that Xert tracks my fitness very well and I would have no qualms in following the workouts. I am not sure I am that in favour of SMART workouts though. These are the ones that adapt an interval if you are not meeting targets to extend the time. Personally if I am not meeting targets then it is not a good day and I do not want to extend the pain thank you very much.
The other reason why I do not use Xert workouts that often is that it causes me a problem with my workflow. Xert does not upload to TP (and from there into WKO5). Therefore if I want the file saving (which I do) then I need to record it on my Garmin and delete the Xert workout in Strava and Xert afterwards.
I think chasing BTs could be an issue, however I am pretty sure that when I start outside riding again they will come along regularly… There are specific BT workouts but I currently comfortable with my numbers and I see no point in trying to inflate them by performing a BT workout.
1 Like
Yeah - I realize already from the reading that I won’t be able to fruitfully put this into operation with indoor training. As I absolutely disdain ventilators hitting me with their airstream and I’m always on a very high cardiac load inside. Kind of an extreme heat adaption programme but I already wrote in another, more appropriate thread (indoor vs outdoor) that I’m seriously wondering that I’m missing out on enough muscle recruiting indoors. Let’s face it - we can have wonderfully structured trainings indoors with no downtime and exactly prescribed intervals but we miss so much other crucial parts (bike control - both in muscular activity of the whole body and in technical ability for no small part).
But for outside work I will definitely incorporate these learnings from Steve.
1 Like
I think one of the advantages of breakthroughs is that you don’t have to schedule them in advance like a test. If you are riding outside and putting in some efforts and feel good you can just go for it. (provided of course you don’t run out of road or reach the top of the hill early, in which case in can be a tad frustrating)
1 Like
With SSB and SSB2 Tuesday is V02 Max, Wednesday Pettit, Thursday SS intervals. If you were to substitute 83% heart rate intensity rides could you do 3 sessions at this intensity during the week and 2 at the weekend? Is it always this intensity?
“83% heart rate intensity” rides are designed to be sweet spot/tempo sessions. So if you were going to substitute those rides for something in SSB, you would sub out the sweet spot workouts. Remember, 83% HRPeak is a cap, not a target. That’s critical. If you use that as a cap you will likely be riding at low-to-mid tempo (Coggan/TR zones) as your target.
Also, when doing these, you do not really do 15 minutes intervals (except maybe to start off). Yesterday, for example, I rode 2x45mins. Warm up for 20mins in Zone1/2, ride 45mins 79-83% HRmax, cool the jets for about 5 minutes, and then do it again. Yes your power will drop during the interval. You’re either going to hold power steady and watch HR go up (TR workouts), or you’re going to hold HR steady and watch power go down (Stevel Neal type session). You have to decide which way you want to train.
With that kind of session, I can barely get 3 complete in a week…usually two, but I’m 46 years old and also include a weekend long ride and a teeny-tiny bit of intensity during my week.
If you want to know what that is like when translated to TR workouts, look at Phoenix, Cumberland, etc.
4 Likes
Interesting, yes I’m 45. So when you say 83% is a cap what number are you actually aiming for? I used to do probably 90% of my training under and usually quite a bit under 73% of Max heart rate when I was racing until I packed in in my early 20’s and it worked really well for me.
I should also say thanks for the info, it’s much appreciated.
80-83%. It’s not uncommon for me to start a session a HR low end and power high end of the zone and then they “criss-cross”, if that makes sense. By the end, you are at the high end of the HR zone (at or near 83%), and at the low end of the power zone (low tempo). Just one way to skin it.
With this type of training, over time you do not suddenly try to ride at a higher heart rate, or really even a higher power (initially, at least). You just go longer and let power “do its thing” over weeks/months. On some days I don’t “intervalize” it. I know I want (for example) 75min time in zone, and I slice that up however I want/can. I’ll pull the plug when my HR is 82-83% (or thereabouts) and my power is high Zone 2, simultaneously (in a sustain way, not a spike). Or if you are not on the bike that long and don’t get to that point, you can stack the days back-to-back. Then you’ll probably get in 3 per week, as you asked.
When that “cross-over” happens earlier in the session, or you feel muscle soreness lingering, switch back to Pettit/Collins type rides, let the muscular endurance fitness soak in while you continue/always address basic endurance (<70% HRPeak riding…low/mid Zone 2).
So you don’t have to do any of this, of course. Just describing what Steve would have most riders do most of the year. There is more to his approach, but what I describe would be one way to “translate it” to TR.
2 Likes
Personally I think Tim Cusick described it best. Without the HR cap. 
Spend time working the aerobic base using endurance, tempo, and sweet spot. Focus on extending the length of intervals, for example take tempo out several hours, and sweet spot out to an hour. Because max heart rate can often change over a season, I really don’t understand why you would want to use it. That is why Friel has recommended using lactate threshold heart rate, in his experience (and mine) it rarely changes. All of this assumes you have an honest FTP that fairly accurately describes your max lactate steady state. In any case tshortt has explained that Neal is an advocate of using HR to train tempo. A lot of other coaches have achieved results training with just power.