Raise intensity on VO2 Max workouts

Hey! Building up to the 3min ones in Spencer, hence why I am doing the little V02 Max plan at the moment :smile:

Fully understand that I am doing shorter intervals right now, but shouldn’t they also feel quite hard, even though they are shorter? The 30/15 ones in Brasted were done with increased intensity as well…

And yes, I know that I don’t need to raise the FTP, which would be an incorrect way of altering effort. But the 290w FTP setting felt weirdly “easy” (comparatively) when doing the workouts, hence why I raised that first incase the test showed a bit low for some reason…

But, with the 300w FTP setting instead of the 290w FTP from ramp test, plus the 105% intensity means that I am working effectively at 315w FTP (from where the workouts are derived)…

Hence why I wrote here and asked… It would feel weird to raise the intensity almost 10% for V02 Max workouts in the long run if I were to “go back” to the ramp test result of 290w and work from that…

If your FTP is 290 and you’re completing the VO2 sessions at 315, the simplest answer is that you’re naturally bias towards that type of work. 120% of FTP is kind-of-like the middle ground, if you will. Most training applications and coaches agree that this is good jumping off point. Some riders need to drop the intensity a couple of percent, others can push upwards.

You say that sustained efforts are more of a challenge. I understand that you’re not training for anything specific at this moment in time but I’d be more inclined to push you towards those. VO2 is already an asset you have.

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The simplest is to do these in resistance or level mode and push as hard as you can for the intervals. If you can push above targets, that’s great. The goal is for you to get to the point where you are at “VO2 max” and hold you there. After the interval you should be gasping for air, almost feeling like you are drowning. If you aren’t feeling like this, you probably aren’t getting to VO2 max. You obviously are very good at these so the ability to push even higher should help with overall fitness and further raise aerobic ceiling.

I’m in the opposite boat and VO2 max is a challenge. The difference between my threshold and what I can hold at VO2 max is not that great, so if I tried to do prescribed power in ERG I’d be failing a lot, especially in the 3 - 5 min intervals. With Resistance mode I can plow through them the best I can but at least complete the interval. The hope is adaptations will come and be able to push higher watts in future VO2 max workouts.

All vo2 means while identifying workouts is that the work intervals are in zone 5. But they could be 1min on, 4min rest. It doesn’t mean they’ll be hard.

What you need to do is look at the IF for the workout. A lot of the ones you’ve done are in the low 0.8s. No wonder you could increase the intensity.

If you want your sessions to actually work your vo2 max systems, you need to be looking at about .9 to .94 IF for a 1 hour workout. And with that in mind, wait till you try Baird +2 and see if you still want to raise the intensity then.

It’s possible that you’re naturally inclined towards vo2 intervals. But a large part of it is simply that the workouts you’ve chosen so far aren’t that hard.

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In the 30/30 workouts I regularly increase the percentage in the last set. I think the short short format just lends itself to feeling easier. In the last set of a 3 set workout I’ll raise the percentage by 2 every few intervals. I can do this no problem on the short short format.

If you can go at increase intensity on Baird +2 you’re doing better than most I would suspect. That’s a hard workout.

Personally I feel that VO2 is a weak spot for me, but in the shorter intervals I can increase intensity. Trying to hold 125-130% for longer intervals with 30 s rest is another story.

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If you don’t want to re test, I like to do Lamarck as a threshold workout. It can help you gauge if that FTP number is accurate.

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Look at the shorter intervals - 30/30s, Gendarme-style - as a way to learn how VO2Max intervals work. If you want to be challenged by short intervals, I suggest Baird +1, Brasted, and the whole series of workouts in the style of Lincoln. And Rattlesnake, of course.

All good points. It should also be remembered that this adhock plan is designed to build you up both physically and mentally. Coach Chad doesn’t set out to crush you.

He did also leave a few of his ‘nastiest’ VO2 workouts out. The Ansel Adams family springs to mind.

You could always try approaching VO2 from a different angle. Tackle your sustained power at the same time. Find a few of the 5/8 minute 108% intervals with 4/5 minutes recovery and you’ll get more bang for your buck :+1:

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You kinda answered your own question regarding the ramp test. You have allready accumumulated some fatigue during the rampup. How does long sweet spot or threshold workouts feel for you with that ftp?

Technically, those are categorized as Anaerobic in TR, since they are mostly at 135% FTP.

Thanks for your answer, and yeah, the idea was to slowly build up to longer efforts since I know this is my weakness in general…

Would something like Ainslie +3 be a good start?

After these 3 weeks I was thinking of going into Sweet Spot Base and doing I and II of that. Still a bit too cold outside for the “fun” rides so might as well sit on the trainer… throughout the year.

A bit off topic:
What types of indoor trainer rides are best bang for the buck when combined with “normal” summer riding outside… Say for example 3 hours indoor per week and 6-8 hours outdoor rides…

Personally, I wouldn’t say that particular workout was a good place to start. If I’m honest, it sounds brutal! Take a look at the Dicks series of workouts. Allow yourself some recovery and build up :+1:

That said, if you’re smashing the short/short format, why not jump in and see if the wheels come off. Just remember that 105% is still Threshold so you’ll need to make the progression to 108%, if you’re looking through the TR catalog.

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I try and do two, three at the very most ‘intense’ (threshold +) sessions indoors, on the trainer. I do them indoors because I want full focus on the work.

The meat of my endurance is on the road during the weekend.

Sweet! :sunglasses:

And those ‘intense’ workouts, what are some examples of those? Just so I can get a ballpark of what type of work we are talking about! :smile:

Thanks again for the help!

Would be interesting to hear how you do with 3 min on, 3 min off VO2 max work vs the 1 min on/off. With the 3 min on, it’s typically 1 min to get you close to VO2 max that doesn’t feel too bad, 1 min of suffering but bearable, and then the last minute of holding on for life…

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Will find out in 2,5 weeks hehe. The idea was to build up to those with this little mini-plan that Coach Chad “put together”! :slight_smile:

I know the longer ones hurt like hell, so this build up might be a good way of approaching them!

There is little point of rising intensity on vo2 max. It is better to lenghten the time in zone - so try hard start vo2 max: Comparing Metabolic Response to Hard-Start VO2max Intervals – Spare Cycles
Or Rattlesnake from TR database. These short 1-2 minutes workouts are quite easy, especially if you are inclined toward these type of efforts.

It depends what is the point of your “explosivness” - if these are short rides for fun, do whatever makes you happy :slight_smile: being better at threshold riding means that you will get faster and less tired to these hills. There is a need of finding the balance between these two. Vo2 usually is for rising the ceiling that you can grow your FTP, and you grow your FTP by riding at FTP for longer periods of time. So everything has its place.

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Thanks for the super helpful reply! :nerd_face:

I’ll defiantly look into spicing things up a little bit after my 3 week challenge. And like you said, we ride our bikes cause its fun, so gotta do what’s fun as well - and now its V02 Max :wink: Haha

Got a hilly race planned in October, hopefully that’s still on schedule considering all things right now - so might be a good idea to train more at threshold and around FTP.

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When I started I really liked vo2 max and hated threshold because I simply was better and vo2. After some training I see I was not good at vo2, but only bad at sustained efforts.

I have written my experience with threshold block:

If you want some more knowledge about vo2 and threshold, definitely I can recommend empirical cycling podcast from Kolie Moore and evoq.bike blog - you will find there a ton of useful informations that may change your perception :slight_smile:

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I’ve found Ansel Adams -2 challenging but doable (note with erg mode I don’t hit the avg power targets because of the ramp up time). That is 50s/50s at 130% ftp.

But I found San Joaquin +3 brutal. 50s/20s at 130% ftp and had to decrease intensity the back half of the sets. That 20s rest is like a tease because I can’t even catch my breath halfway through and then it’s the next Vo2 period. Try one of those and you might find it more challenging.

But I’m discovering as others have that I’m not really that good at V02 stuff and just lack aerobic fitness. Those sets are the ones I can get through without consistent modifications to intensity or additional nonscheduled break. I am still struggling with long threshold sets in erg mode and planning to experiment with switching resistance instead for the next time I do that. Sweet spot 90%+ ftp I can also get through. it ain’t fun but doable though. I’m working on my aerobic fitness finally as I now have the time to try mid volume stuff (previously did low volume). Started over with base so doing SSBMV1 currently got a couple of sessions left for week 3 currently.