Raise intensity on VO2 Max workouts

Thanks for the super helpful reply! :nerd_face:

I’ll defiantly look into spicing things up a little bit after my 3 week challenge. And like you said, we ride our bikes cause its fun, so gotta do what’s fun as well - and now its V02 Max :wink: Haha

Got a hilly race planned in October, hopefully that’s still on schedule considering all things right now - so might be a good idea to train more at threshold and around FTP.

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When I started I really liked vo2 max and hated threshold because I simply was better and vo2. After some training I see I was not good at vo2, but only bad at sustained efforts.

I have written my experience with threshold block:

If you want some more knowledge about vo2 and threshold, definitely I can recommend empirical cycling podcast from Kolie Moore and evoq.bike blog - you will find there a ton of useful informations that may change your perception :slight_smile:

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I’ve found Ansel Adams -2 challenging but doable (note with erg mode I don’t hit the avg power targets because of the ramp up time). That is 50s/50s at 130% ftp.

But I found San Joaquin +3 brutal. 50s/20s at 130% ftp and had to decrease intensity the back half of the sets. That 20s rest is like a tease because I can’t even catch my breath halfway through and then it’s the next Vo2 period. Try one of those and you might find it more challenging.

But I’m discovering as others have that I’m not really that good at V02 stuff and just lack aerobic fitness. Those sets are the ones I can get through without consistent modifications to intensity or additional nonscheduled break. I am still struggling with long threshold sets in erg mode and planning to experiment with switching resistance instead for the next time I do that. Sweet spot 90%+ ftp I can also get through. it ain’t fun but doable though. I’m working on my aerobic fitness finally as I now have the time to try mid volume stuff (previously did low volume). Started over with base so doing SSBMV1 currently got a couple of sessions left for week 3 currently.

Rather than starting a new thread, I’ll piggy-back on this one.

I did my first Vo2 max workout of my plan yesterday - ‘Mound’ - it’s a 1.5 level workout which is to be expected as the first one TR would give.

My stance on vo2 max has always been that you do them very hard, regardless of what the target is as you want your body to be in state of vo2 max - that’s the whole point!

Anyway, I did the intervals by feel and had an IF of .93 vs. the planned IF of .73. I obviously did the efforts a decent amount above the target, so my question is what now? A .93 IF indicates a workout level of likely around 8, but my next one is only recommending me to do a level 3.7.

My questions:

  • Do I just do the recommended next session and go by feel again and overachieve?
  • Or manually pick one say in the 5 or 6 range to sort catch up to my level ability?
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It depends on what type of V02 Max it is. Very anaerobically strong can really blow the numbers out of the water if it’s 30/30s or similar.

But that can also add a lot of unwanted fatigue…

And then on the other side, if you start doing longer V02 Max, you might start to see that you won’t be able to do them…

I would probably jump up to a 5-6 range and try it :slight_smile: V02 Max is supposed to be very hard, but not max…

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It sounds as if you have sufficient experience to judge it well enough.

That being the case, picking a higher PL workout next is a sensible option.

Whether you go straight for an 8 (and, if so which 8) is for you to decide based on your current fitness and where you are in your training plan. I think your choice could be different if you are at the start of base compared to at the end of build.

What sort of VO2 workouts were you doing prior to coming into this TR plan?

Yes, this is my main concern. The workout I did was only 50 second efforts with longish rests. I know from experience, these efforts are much different compared to say 3-5 minutes (even 2 min. for that matter). I’m leaning toward self selecting a workout in the 5 level range and see how that goes.

yeah, I wouldn’t go straight to an 8 due to the unknowns of how I can handle longer efforts and/or shorter rest periods. The safe bet would be jump into the 5 range and reevaluate.

This was my vo2 max effort since the fall. I don’t do structured training in general (giving it a go now!), so any vo2 max efforts would have been during spirited group rides.

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I 100% disagree.

If I’m doing a VO2 workout (say 6x3m) then I’m playing games in my head to get myself to the end of at least 5 of the intervals. It’s called VO2 MAX after all. Not VO2 Kinda Hard.

In that case I’d probably not go too crazy with the jump. That sounds like a pretty entry level VO2 workout and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having some sort of acclimatization workouts before doing full bore ones. I’d probably find another workout with like 2-3min intervals and maybe like 10-15 total time in zone and see how that goes. Sorry idk what that translates to in PLs though.

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Of course they are hard, but just because it says “Max” doesn’t mean you go out and do max efforts. That was my only point.

If you go out too hard you won’t be able to finish :slight_smile: I never said “kinda hard”, I wrote “very hard”. Kinda different :wink:


And everyone is different, some do well on V02 Max and some really suffer, same goes for threshold, tempo etc. Hence why it’s hard to give recommendations based on feeling. If I go on feeling I’ll cook myself, whereas someone else might never be able to go so hard that they’ll cook themselves.

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You can use TrainNow to check what underlying ML model thinks you should be able to tackle.

My VO2max PL was recently ~3, TN recommended >PL7. I was little afraid and went with 4x4min PL5.7 instead, and indeed, it actually did felt easy. Luckily I still spent quite a lot time in VO2max HR zone.

Another note: if you do longer intervals, instead pushing intensity much higher, first try high cadence (110rpm+) – this increases your breathing rate + HR with less muscular fatigue. During interval, count your breaths, 50+ would be good indicator that you are in good (i.e. bad) place :slight_smile:

If still feels easy, then adjust intensity higher.

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Interesting - I didn’t know the TrainNow did that. I checked it out and it suggested a workout in the 6 PL. I’m not far off what my gut told me that I should try something in the 5 PL zone for my next one. Thanks for the tip!

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As you can see, I only really went to max effort on the last one, but the others felt like the right effort. In the first set I was kind of feeling the effort out, but settled in pretty consistent after that. I could have done another set if pressed to.

Do you have a goal race or are you training for fitness? If you are gearing up for a race I am a big believer in that we only have so many matches. I coach XC and too often I see kids over-extend in workouts early in the season and are barely holding on in the end when it counts the most. There’s a lot of factors in play here… training history, volume, base conditioning, etc. Just my experience, but blasting every VO2 because you can, doesn’t necessarily mean you should.

I would look at the big picture. What are your goals now and long term and come up with a progressive plan to get there. That said if you have no goal you are planning for and just want to go full gas than do it. :+1:

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Yeah, I see where you’re coming from. No goal race at all, just general fitness. I think my mindset on this workout was I had no idea what kind of higher effort shape I was in, so I pushed to see where I’m at. Maybe part ego (insecurity) and part curiosity.

Once the workout was over, I then became curious what the next step should be given that I had overachieved the workout.

Just to add: I do believe in the ‘minimum effective dose’ approach to training as I think you get better long term compliance

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Replying to myself for a quick update. I decided to try Baird +1, which is PL 6. It went well - I rated it as hard and it felt like the right effort. TR didn’t want me to do it, saying “Not Recommended”. I understand TR wants slower ramp up, but sometimes you gotta go by feel, especially for vo2max efforts.

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Hey,

I’ve posted about this topic a few times recently so I’ll just recycle one of my last messages with a link to a bigger thread on VO2 Max as a training zone rather than a strict physiological state.

Check out my recent post about VO2 Max workouts here. I think it could be worth a read.

Not all VO2 Max workouts are designed to simply increase stroke volume through sustained time spent near VO2 Max. This is a power zone just like Endurance, Sweet Spot, and Threshold, but the name tends to confuse people. For example, with Threshold (also refers to a physiological state (LT2)), the power or training zone is a range (95-105% of FTP) that covers the rough area around your estimated LT2. Similarly, VO2 Max as a power or training zone also covers a wide range (106-120% of FTP) and there are multiple types of stimulus that you can target while riding in that range, hence the many types of VO2 workouts.

If the VO2 workouts you’re being prescribed are too easy, simply finish them and fill out the post-workout survey properly and we’ll make the necessary adjustments down the road. There are plenty of hard VO2 Max workouts in our library. :sweat_smile:

As @svens mentioned, double-checking with TrainNow could be a great option as well since that’s currently using a different tool to recommend workouts. :upside_down_face:

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