I walked a 3-hour half marathon (short jog last half mile) under my MAF HR. But on the bike? Completely different story.
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Mikael Eriksson at Scientific Triathlon takes a deep dive on MAF HR here:
Q&A #18 - The problems with the Maffetone method and 180-Formula, and should you choose trails... - YouTube. (@5:15 mins)
Of course Mikael is not the final authority on this, but he’s well respected.
Short answer: there is no peer-reviewed literature supporting the Maffetone HR calculation. If it matches up to something (like it does with me), it’s coincidental.
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Without getting hung up on a proprietary equation, the general take-away might be that many high level, well-established coaches, scientists, and medical professionals all agree on the performance benefits of doing as much “low”* training as possible.
*(be it HR, power, lactate, VO2max, etc.)
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Question - if using a POL or PYR approach in base phase for an all-rounder (i.e. nothing particularly race-specific to bear in mind, just base building), what kind of intervals would you recommend? Duration, intensity, number, rest period. Seiler 4 x 8s? Short shorts? Something in between? Progression e.g. start out at 90 second intervals and progress up to 6-8 minutes?
Context - looking at intervals data on previous years I’ve always had a pyramidal distribution at an annual level, and the majority of individual weeks are pyramidal as well. This has largely been an output of the way I’ve raced and trained, rather than anything planned. I enjoy races and fast group rides, so I’ve always done quite a lot of them, which means I’ve always naturally had a good sprinkling of Z3 work (on the 3 zone model) without needing to add extra other than sprint sessions which are more about technique and muscle recruitment than fitness and involve very little time in zone. Not a crazy amount of Z3, but it’s consistently about 5% by time across the year, higher during race season and lower during base as you’d expect. I typically do 1-2 SS sessions each week throughout all phases as well, find it good for TTs and muscular endurance (spend quite a bit of time in Z2 during group rides and races but rarely sustained for more than about 5 minutes unless there’s a long climb or a long solo break), hence I’m nearly always pyramidal and rarely polarised other than in taper weeks.
With covid wiping out racing and now even small group rides not allowed in the UK (can meet one other rider) I’m not getting any Z3 work naturally. Got my racing fix from Zwift for a while, but Zwift races tend to be ~threshold throughout compared to spikier outdoor races anyway, and for the last couple of months I haven’t been racing and just been base building with about 2/3 Z1 and 1/3 Z2, and a teeny tiny amount of Z3 from spiking power over short climbs or pulling away from lights. Starting to get bored, need some variety, so figured this was a good opportunity to start adding in one Z3 ride/week in a structured way rather than the haphazard (but very enjoyable and quite race-specific!) way I normally get it No particular weaknesses to work on, no particular races in mind (guess TTs will be the first ones back on the calendar and then hopefully crits and road races later in the summer), so very open minded. Given that I’m in base with no races scheduled it did occur to me that short shorts would be a good way of accumulating time in zone without building up too much fatigue (want to be fresh when lockdown ends!). But then at the other end of the spectrum is Seiler who is kind of Mr Polarised and often talks about 4 x 8!
You can buy generic off-the-shelf base and full season plans from TrainingPeaks. They are designed by professional coaches and are more traditional with pyramidal distribution. IMHO thats a better start than randomly soliciting intervals advice on the Internet. Or buy Friel’s Cyclist Training Bible and use that as a template to build out your own plan.
do whatever intervals make you accomplish the major factor: consistency. In base period you’re not really developing your high end, it’s more for maintenance (well, the Norwegians xc skiier actually build in pre-season but that’s a different story now). Now is the time for figuring out what works for you. Build into these sessions. Quite frankly, it does matter if you do intermittent 30/30s or long 4x4 or even longer 4x8. You will like one over the other, figure this out now. There is a learning curve with these. Once build starts you will know what works for you and what not.
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Consistency is job 1, absolutely. Find whatever brings about the most consistency, and makes you want to get on the bike.
Sorry, you lost me - to what comment of mine were you replying?
I think that you are misinterpreting the lactate balance point. It’s like looking at someone’s checking account balance across many months, i.e., it tells you whether the deposits match the withdrawals, but not either one independently.
Similar, lactate balance point tells you (at least theoretically) the maximal intensity at which lactate release into the circulation is matched by lactate clearance, but not either one independently.
Or you could say that many high level, well-established coaches, scientists, and medical professionals all agree on the performance benefits of doing lots of training, which in itself limits the intensity.
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Nah. I actually did mean what I wrote. Pretty sure so too did ISM:
By doing this [always training fast] they won’t improve nearly as much as if they trained zone 2 in large amounts.
‘Train Z2 in large amounts’ is NOT “train in large amounts”.
But whateves. You do you.
I don’t really care what you meant, or what ISM said. I just know what is.
Ever ask yourself why Seiler couldn’t find any studies to cite for his strawman threshold TID?
Yup, that’s exactly how I arrived at my previous approach of getting most of my >threshold training from races and group rides! Way more motivating (=consistent) for me than structured intervals at those intensities and got me better results as well. Did at least get to the stage of going into the group rides with a plan to make it a more focused workout E.g. If I wanted to do some 5 minute VO2 intervals then I knew the groups and routes well enough to know where I could work those in in ways that would complement the ride and not be out of line.
Quite enjoy short shorts on the trainer, so may start with those to get the ball rolling as have barely been above threshold for a few months. Progress to some sets of 3 minute intervals. Then get outside and hit some of the local rolling hill routes where I can get a series of 5-7 minute climbs in fairly short succession and have some fun doing it.
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On the Gorgos/Lorang presentation. Firstly, as already alluded to above, Lorang is helping Gorgos with pitching his new company. Offering coaching services and nutrition products. Nothing bad about this, everyone has to make a living. And of course, performance testing is part of the offering. There were a few interesting information nuggets but overall this was an INSCYD commercial.
One point, they suggest doing fatmax/base rides (even though for them base is something different, depending on the test results, we all know what the recommendations are) at a slightly lower intensity. Not at the outer edge of the fatmax zone. Their rational is that one would empty the glycogen stores too much. In a training block this could be detrimental as there isn’t enough time to replenish these stores.
Mmmm … I don’t know, I’d say there has to be more nuance to this. I’d rather go with ISM.
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Listening to the Arild Tvieten interviews on TTS he also talks about low intensity training being easier than how ISM is pitching it. He says 1 mmol lactate max. This is inline with just other Norwegian coaches I’ve heard. Very easy so that glycogen is preserved for the harder efforts.
But that must be assuming there are those hard efforts. If doing mostly base training would it still be the case? I’m not sure what to believe is actually the optimal fatmax training zone. Mine, according to inscyd for example is very low Z2 and basically recovery pace. I can’t nor want to ride so slow but how much of potential improvements I’m leaving on the table by riding a bit harder, e.g. high Z2? I figure nobody knows really…
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That’s understandable, but keep in mind within the INSCYD system they are expecting you to ride a fair bit of Medio too. I realize you’re responding to the comment about glycogen stores during a block, but I question how a low (ish) volume athlete needs to worry about this when doing any level within Zone 2.
So getting fast just riding low Z2 all the time because it’s your FatMax? I’m not seeing it. (not saying ppl wouldn’t benefit from a block or two of exclusively Zone 2 or longer term if you’re able to increase volume enough, as I believe @Captain_Doughnutman recently did). But low Z2 is just dilly-dallying around. Now, if you also doing a fair bit of Medio during the week, then yeah, ride FatMax or lowish FatMax to “recover” (but not a “recovery ride”, as guys in the cycling club love to say when they go out and smash it for a shorter duration than they smashed it the day before). Get a little fatigue in your legs from consecutive long Medio sessions, then ride 2 hrs of FatMax the next day (for example). In that case, yeah, I’d ride low FatMax.
The other thing to remember with those INSCYD zones is that FatMax zone isn’t the only area where you are using predominately fat oxidation. It’s not an “either or” situation. A very high level of fax oxidation is generating energy in Medio as well, and it’s not that much less than at FatMax. “max” isn’t that much higher a rate of FatOx than mid-Medio. mid-Medio is usually only slightly higher than AeT.
Keep in mind that you don’t have to actually oxidize fat to get better at oxidizing fat.
In fact, when you look at the studies showing the biggest increases in fat oxidation during exercise after training, they’re the ones where the subjects trained really, really hard, and therefore were mostly fueled by carbohydrate while working out.
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But fat oxidation and raising the fat oxidation ability to higher levels are two different things.
To optimally improve it my impression from the inscyd crew is to ride at fatmax.
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@Skeggis I took this from the ISM thread. @sryke highlighted it (I think, sorry if I misattributed).
Look down the FATox column. Where does it change significantly the first time? I would say from 0.31 to 0.18. Now look over at [La]. The highlight is at 1.83, the average LT1 for this group (n=20). So that’s AeT, generally.
Go back and look at FATox again. Where would you say FATMAX is :-). It’s 0.38 (that being higher than 0.31). Now look at the power in row one (FATMax) and the power in row two (LT1). 30W. What’s the difference in wattage between your FatMax from INSCYD and right below mid-Medio? (rhetorical, not actually asking). I bet it’s similar. But .31 and .38 are very close to each other, despite the apparent spread if just looking at power. They are a very similar rate. Even if you go a bit higher but maybe not into the third row (maybe 175W), still a fair amount of FATox.
Also, it is true that you don’t need to necessarily be oxidizing fat to get better at oxidizing fat. But you can sure do more time/volume in FatMax and Medio than you can at higher intensities. And you DO get better at oxidizing fat by doing more (to a point). So yeah, don’t throw out the HiiT but you can (and should) minimize it.