I get that, but I was asking what the IF was for you, for those TIS scores, just interested.
It undoubtedly depends on many factors, e.g., age, training history, etc.
For example, this past summer I went from next-to-nothing to over 60 hours per month of JRA (i.e., zone 2), and my FTP only went up roughly 10, maybe 15 watts. So for me, obviously either even 15 hours per week isn’t enough, or I need to train harder to make significant gains.
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They all land between 65-70% FTP/HRmax (weird that it works out like that).
But doesn’t INCYD claim the exact opposite, i.e., training that way will severely blunt your VLaMax?
(FWIW, my personal experience aligns with INCYD and not WKO, as there is no better way to prepare for domestique duties than to just bang out miles and miles of tempo to turn yourself into a diesel.)
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I’m doing this experiment right now. I’m mostly constrained to indoor riding and get outside once or twice per week if the weather permits.
I’m doing 5 to 6 60-75 minute Z2 trainer rides per week plus some dumbbell weight training plus 1-2 outdoor rides. Overall, it’s 6-7 hours per week. My FTP has been holding and it seems to be enough of a stimulus that I’m tired enough for a rest week now.
I agree, I’ve done a handful of 2 hour sessions but I can’t go longer than that. I guess that’s another point for SS work - it’s more enjoyable than the long endurance slogs even with the increased fatigue (for me). This just has me coming back to points being made on all these threads - TR plans (any plan) should be individualized and the rider needs to know themselves pretty well.
Were your 5 hour rides indoor or outdoor, mix of both?
That’s kinda what I’m thinking about my indoor sessions now. 1 hr z2 is probably just maintaining any/most of my fitness, of course the high end probably won’t stick around too long, but that comes back relatively quickly for me. Again, I’m surprised by the amount of fatigue I’m dealing with even with just a little steady pedaling z2. I think it’s that constant pedaling that only comes from indoor riding that’s different. It’s not like I’m new to riding rollers/trainer, but after months away from it, still a bit surprising to get this much DOM from low intensity efforts. Again, this isn’t anything severe I’m just not used to feeling sore what-so-ever from easy riding. If I do an easy ride outside, I’m completely fine the next day etc - obviously there’s a big enough difference between the two. I live in a hilly/mountainous zone so plenty of coasting outdoors…
Yes and no.
I agree with you comment, I am not sure that directly contradicts my statement or WKO?
Yes, Sebastian Weber and Inscyd say that that tempo/threshold/sweetspot training improves FTP by reducing the lactate production in the fast twitch fibres, reducing anaerobic capacity.
However, when listening to san Milan on that triathlon show he said that sweet spot and threshold intervals boost a anaerobic / glycolytic power, If I recall correctly. Going to give that one another listen.
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All outside, it was summer.
Exactly what I’m finding. Indoor is a different creature. I’m guessing that long Z2 rides could contribute just as much to muscular endurance as shorter SS workouts.
I’m totally with you on this and agree on many people simply falling into this trap.
Last Xmas I had a slow time at work and a little extra holiday, so decided on the Rapha 500. Weather was reasonable, there were a few of my regular ride buddies around and I smashed it out no problem. I still had another couple of quiet weeks so did it again, and a bit more. I managed a block of 1000 outdoor miles over Xmas. It certainly wasnt all low intensity, as they were lots of well structured group rides with constant rotating turns on the front etc and a few hills to hit, but it was probably 60-70% z2 (Coggan). Had a week of rest days and a couple of easy rides and re-tested, and got a +20w FTP bump. I then rode big mileage this year and didnt really do much interval work at all, and managed about 8000 miles by Nov, and had a steady rise in FTP all year long, just from racking up lots of 50+ mile steady rides. Plenty of ‘grey’ in there along the way, but volume of lower aerobic work really works. This was all on the back of 10 years and about 60,000 miles riding.
I’ve just done a 12 week block of extended tempo & SST intervals using the rollers indoors and supplementing with a few endurance rides up to 4hrs a couple of times a week. I ended up with a 100 min TiZ SST ride and my muscular endurance certainly improved hugely but I’m also fairly sure I started digging a bit of a hole for myself. Even after a rest week I couldnt complete a 3x10 @95% and a couple of 3hr outdoor endurance rides had my HR running at +20bpm on what it should have been, so I’ve dialed it back again now and am simply doing easy endurance rides with some threshold work - did 4x10 @ 95% today for example - every 4-5 days. I hope to end up with 10-12hrs per week for a few months, with as much of that as possible in easy easy endurance rides. If the weather isn’t too severe I might even hit 15+ for a while as I don’t really have much of a job any more.
This, and working back through all the other big pol threads and Seiler podcasts has really helped me re-focus. I’m not a racer and all my goals this year are GF’s or multi-day trips, so getting back to building the biggest diesel this 50 year old can manage is priority #1 
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I’ve wondered what the conversion rate is, something like 1.25:1 or 1.5:1. Definitely not 1:1
I’m just wondering how well polarized training works for us folks who time crunched or aren’t highly trained?
Seems that polarized requires longer rides at lower intensities and if I only have 4-6 hours to train on average, would I be able to accumulate enough low intensity miles for that plan to be effective?
Also on the high end, I’ve been doing structured training for about 8 months. Would I be able to put in the high intensity effort needed on the high end to create the changes needed?
Also would most people have the discipline to keep it in the right zone? Staying in a lower zone may mean riding pretty slow and so many group rides or rides with friends quickly turn into higher end efforts.
if you struggle with recovery then polarized may in fact work better… even at 6 hours a week. Back before the road bike I got a nice FTP just doing spin class HIIT twice a week for 75 minutes each session, plus an outside ride or two. The key was smashing it for 20-30 minutes in spin class. My muscular endurance was crap, but good enough for 20-40 mile group rides.
Discipline is a whole 'nother topic, and conflating group rides with zone discipline is a bit of a red herring. Either don’t do low-intensity rides on group rides, or like a local cat2 hang off the back and tell everyone your coach said nothing higher than 150W (or whatever low-intensity is for you).
Bottom line, you are in charge and can do anything you set the mind to do.
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I didn’t know you were Cat2 
LOL not me! I just happen to ride with a bunch of 20-60+ year old bad asses.
“Geology is the study of pressure and time. That’s all it takes, really. Pressure and time. That and a big goddamn poster.”
— Ellis Boyd ‘Red’ Redding, The Shawshank Redemption
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your name is showing lol the cloak of secrecy has been broken
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Stalker! 
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you don’t have to be highly trained to undertake a block of polarized training. However, time is the main factor. If you aren’t highly trained, you could probably get away with doing much less hours than a “pro” etc. But, those newb gains come fast and you’ll have to up the volume. 4-6hrs? I guess you could do 2x2hr Z2 + 2x30min VO2, andblock them during the week: Z2/Z2/rest/VO2/VO2/rest/rest.
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if you’ve been working through TR plans, you’ve probably already done high intensity workouts (e.g. 120% intervals). POL isn’t any more intense.
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“right zone” discipline. Well…it’s something that every type of training requires, even SS. You shouldn’t do POL if you don’t have a plan for it, cuz it’s both boring and hard. It’s training and we don’t always train the way we enjoy riding. You have to commit to going both easy enough and hard enough. If you just want to get stronger and faster, stick with SS and forget about it. But there are examples of TR users et al who have done POL and come out the other side fresh and flying.
Happy experimenting!
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Four hours per week is a tough ask. 6 hours is 50% more. Averaging 6 hours per week is a hundred hours per year of training compared to 4. At a low volume of training, consistency is huge. Maintaining week to week training and not letting yourself detain will reap huge benefits.
Whatever hours per week you ride, you still need endurance riding. If one can only do 4 hours per week I’d do 2x1 hour during the week. Program in some intervals. On Sunday, go ride 2 hours at an endurance pace and maybe throw in a few efforts and have fun. If you are you going to hit 6 hours, you’ll be throwing in more endurance riding, not more intensity.
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Hey Donut, when you look at WKO’s Polarized Training dashboard do you have any periods where weekly training at >85% vo2max was above 10%? Just curious given your comments about having to do longer vo2 intervals (I’m the opposite). I’ve got a longish 15 week “build” period in 2017 where >85% vo2max was between 10-29% every week, and I remember it being both hard (always falling asleep after dinner) and volume was inconsistent due to smashing it all the time and knees couldn’t take the punishment. However I pushed FTP to an all-time high AND could do really long 40-80 minutes at +/- threshold AND mostly held fitness until November despite cutting back volume June - September.