@Captain_Doughnutman
"The hard enough to drop you zone”…BHD comes through again.
Couple thought on this great thread
First: I like Dylan’s content
Second This is a great quote:
Third the “best” approach depends on a number of variables which probably change over both long and short time scales. In my N=1case, multiple hours per session of Z2 riding on a trainer during the winter (Idaho=snow 4-5months) isn’t something I’m going to do. An hour is fine and 90min is ok occasionally.
I think the real question for most of us is whether 3.5hrs of TR’s SSB program is better than 3 hrs of Z2 and 20 min of Z5 a week.
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This is similar to what the Norwegian triathlon coach said on That Triathlon Show. 60-75 mins at slightly sub threshold several times per week.
I’m currently indoors doing “multiple hours per session of Z2 riding on a trainer during the winter”. I’ve been experimenting with my “minimum effective dose” pertaining to aerobic training (WKO analysis). Seems as though 3:45 @ 65% is my minimum dose required for maximum aerobic effectiveness. Yeah, it’s kinda gross – and definitely my maximum mental dose – but I can do a lot more of it than I could SS work.
If I churn out a 2.5hr SS ride it’ll give me a pretty decent aerobic score but also carry an anaerobic component. However, the An component isn’t large enough to drive VO2 adaptations, it just adds fatigue. With that said, with fewer the hours, SS is the winner…but it will never be as aerobically or anaerobically optimal as independent Endurance and VO2max sessions.
In my situation, it appears POL wins the day for general fitness development:
3x4hr Z2 + 1x1hr VO2 (13hr) might be considered somewhat equivalent to 4x2.5hr SS (10hr), except that I could do the Z2/VO2 combo for weeks on end; the SS 4 days/wk would just load up too much fatigue.
If I was just wanting to stay super fit I’d do 2x4hr Z2 on the weekends and 1x1hr VO2 + 1x1hr SS during the week = 10hrs.
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after warmup try starting with a block of tempo and then z2 - you might cut that down to ~3 hours.
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I occasionally add some low tempo stretches (a la sryke a la pro-style “stuff”,
or batwood’s workout x2) but I’m not concerned with chopping time right now.
For ~3 weeks I’m after lots of aerobic impact and lots of volume (it’s still king); shooting for 1,000 Z2 TSS for the last week of 2020 — show it who’s boss! 
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This is a very good comment.
First off, I’m very similar to you: I need approximately 3-4 hours of Zone 2 training for it to have any kind of effect.
Second, the
is so relatable and what all this conversation is really about. Sweet spot is something inbetween, you get some aerobic and some anaerobic benefits, but not the whole package of any of the two. You’re better off doing Zone 2 work + VO2 work to get the best of two worlds. And for doing SS 4 days a week and it loading up too much fatigue: that’s exactly the “too much of the grey zone” argument that coaches make. Once you have enough time to do 4 relatively longer workouts a week, you’re better off doing Zone2+VO2 than doing only SS. That’s the whole point of the polarised : sweet spot debate if you ask me.
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And how do you even know this? How do you know that those shorter zone 2 rides do not matter? Serious question.
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Maybe he is looking at the TiS Training Impact Scores in WKO for each session and assuming that anything low i.e 1 - 3 is not effective?
Yup. WKO’s Training Impact Score.
But…in 2019 all I did was Z2 rides (doctor’s orders) and all I had was sub/objective observation of my own self. I can confidently state that doing 5hr rides had a much more noticeable effect on my fitness than the 3-4hr rides. However, there’s no way I’m doing 5hrs on a trainer, that’s why I’m investigating what duration provides the min. effective dose and work from there.
There’s probably a WKO/TP free trial if that kind of analysis is interesting to you.
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I really do think this is a time when people need to step back from the trees and look at the woods though…
Just because the TiS might say that about one workout, take a step back and look at a months worth of work. If we only focus on 1 workout all the time it simply brings us back to the ‘need to maximise every hour of time so I do SST’ argument again. While TiS may say 3+ hours for an impact I find it hard to imagine that racking up volume of 2 & 2.5hr sessions, for example, isn’t going to provide a lot of benefits.
One thing I keep seeing is everyone talking about weekly distribution. I’ve listened to a lot of Seiler talks now and he talks a lot about longer periods like months and seasons.
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That was what I was kind of implying.
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Lazy question - and just looking for a general answer of course. Minimum number of hours for z2 riding to have an effect per week?
I’m less excited about doing SS work this year. Last year I was pretty committed to SSBMV, and after flirting with, and getting sick a few times dropped to the LV for part 2. Looking back I’m not sure the bang for the buck was there for me - more fatigued than I think I needed to be without a big ftp bump. Maybe TTE improved? Even going to LV, I have notes indicating I was dancing around illness more than I should.
I’m considering a hybrid approach to base where I do only one SS workout per week then add endurance rides everywhere I can and progressively add some VO2 max eventually. I’m looking at 6-8 hours a week and 400-450 TSS that seems to work best for me.
I’ve just started riding the rollers again in the last couple of weeks and I’ve done one SS workout that seemed too hard (using my FTP from the fall so an obvious issue there, probably was a sub / threshold workout instead.) and the rest have just been Taku and Pettit. I did two days back to back Pettit and actually have a little DOMS today. Surprised by this a bit but it’s also maybe the contrast of no indoor riding from just riding outside when never I felt like it (ie 2-3 hours a week tops). Ah, fitness…
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I’m also curious, I’m sure it’s pretty individualized but I’m in part 3 of TB MV and it has Sundays at 3, 3.15, and 3:30. Already did mount cook for 3 hours and it’s not something I enjoyed on a trainer, 2 hours is really my limit of enjoyment and beyond that I’m just doing it because I feel like I have to, not want to.
Curious how 1-2 hour Z2 rides, or an accumulation of them, benefits performance
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Just a brief observation on how we sometimes get caught up on labels vs. the meat and potatoes of any particular training plan. I’m currently working my way through SSB mid volume 1 and 2. If I follow the plans as they were originally designed (i.e. I do the long Z2 ride on Sunday instead of the sweet spot workout), I end up with absolutely zero time doing sweet spot intervals beyond the 8th week.
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Thats a HUGE ‘it depends’ answer, but in an interview I was listening to on my 90 min z2 rollers session the other day. Seiler gave a great example when asked about min effective dose of low intensity…
…imagine 2 twins and 1 sits on the sofa and 1 goes out and does 1-2hrs of low intensity work pretty much every day. What would be the fitness difference between them?
Of course if people are already doing 20+hrs cycling a week then 1-2 hr low intensity sessions wont do much, but for people in the <10hrs a week then I truly believe that OVER TIME they contribute a lot of benefit, especially when combined with an hour of quality intervals. I think its really easy for us to ignore an hour here and there while in reality its still a fair bit of aerobic work done, and then again the next day and .the next…
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I can answer this with experience. Again, in 2019 I was doing 8-10x1hr Z2 during the week and 2x3-5hr on the weekend (3+ months). The 1hr rides were basically treading water; it was the longer rides, esp. the 5hr ones, which really boosted fitness.
Fewer hours will provide a benefit, but since I currently have no time constraints, I’m looking to maximize aerobic benefits via both volume (still king) and MED. I’m not going to get that with either SS or shorter Z2. I’m after racking up a string of 10’s without the fatigue of SS work. If it was summer, I’d probably be doing 5hr rides outside (even though I don’t really like riding for 5hrs outside…or 4hrs inside…gotta do what ya gotta do!).
My personal Z2 aerobic scores: 1hr = 2-3; 2hr = 4-5; 3hr = 6-7; 4hr = 9-10; 5hr = 10+ (+ = etherial benefits)
That’s why we build annual plans. 
It’s not POL vs SS, it’s POL and SS.
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If we end up doing them, the SST sessions, often and in the 90 - 95% range with a high TiZ it is easy to end up having a higher impact on our anaerobic system than the aerobic system (according to WKO anyway).
That is fine, there is a time and place for that, but I an willing to bet there are many are actually doing this in early/mid Base by too much SST, not realising they are starting to shift away from the training focus of their aerobic base but more reinforcing the anaerobic contribution.
SST doesn’t directly replace Long Steady Aerobic as I am sure some (most?) supporters of SST training realise
I wrote a lot more but deleted it as its like opening a can of worms, to easy to pick away at, hope the gist and intention is understood, wording is difficult 
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But where in Z2, it makes a big difference.
1.5 hrs at 72 - 73% can be a 4 the same as you have for 2 hours, fit in a bit of low end tempo 15 - 20 minutes into that and you can end up with a 5 in 1hrs30 to 1hr40
True, as other’s have pointed out. But I’m currently seeking a mix of volume and aerobic ‘minimum effective dose’; no interesting in shortening the rides at this point. When I am eventually time constrained, I will be turning to SS.