Perimenopausal/Menopausal Ladies - What is your training like now?

Training
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Hey Ladies of a certain age…how’s your training going?

Are you rigidly following the TR plans? How’s that working out?

Have you made any changes?

I am really interested in how people are dealing with this in real time. I’ve found a couple of supportive Facebook groups which really focus on athletic performance. However, they are very driven toward Stacy Simms - she is a very loud voice in the sea of opinion at the moment. I do agree with the need for more VO2/sprint work - but the ‘recommendations’ are to keep on top of these things - every week adding in SIT training, Plyometrics, Strength Work etc. It doesn’t leave much time for anything else. I’ll add one of her latest videos at the bottom for those that haven’t yet come across her. I often feel she maybe over-extrapolates the science for her case, but it is interesting none-the-less. I also agree that pretty much all our training advice/coaching is based on the responses of your average male.
In some ways I hate the argument ‘women are not small men’ as we are all human. Equally though, I am not even the same metabolically as I was 10 years ago and I am definitely very very different from my husband of the same age.

The TR model is based on thousands and thousands and thousands of users…the vast majority of which will be men, and women still in their prime and not yet facing the hurdles of the change.

We are a sub-set - do the programs really adapt to us, or do they adapt to how the system thinks the average male will respond? (Maybe one for TR team to answer there - would my AI recommendations, if following a plan, come specifically from analysis of similar females, or a general analysis of all players in the system?)

Just interested in where others are with this. I am on some no-real structure downtime at the moment but have been doing a bit of sprint work alongside riding around for fun/camping etc, but am planning to start structure again soon. I don’t have a goal event which gives me a whole load of time to experiment.

I am interested in how you phase training…do you just follow a TR plan, do you modify it, do you work on a polarized structure for a bit and then change, do you do blocks of say, VO2 then threshold? What has worked/doesn’t work for you?

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Hey @JoPage :slight_smile: Super interesting topic for sure!

As far as TR goes, the custom training plans are entirely individual and adjusts as you go, without any sort of age/gender related blocks or templates in place to skew the training in any way.Our system analyzes your training history and takes a unique approach for you.

Regarding things like menstrual cycles, perimenopausal/menopausal, etc… a key part of training with TR is a quick, 1-question survey you fill our after a workout. That combined with machine learning analysis to help our system know how to adjust your upcoming workouts.

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Thank you @Caro.Gomez-Villafane

I am not sure I completely agree with you though. If you take a standard Base-Build-Speciality that is designed around something. TR gives a new user a plan with these three phases (i.e. the plan can’t be designed for THEM as the system knows nothing about them at that point really). This, I assume, is based on all the TR knowledge which started with coach Chads plans and which have been changed and added to over the years through improved science and all the data you guys collect from users…but all this data is really based on a majority that is an average to strong white male cyclist.

How would you know if the proportions of zones that the system is chucking out for menopausal women are actually right? How does anyone know at the moment? Maybe having much more VO2 and sprint training even in base phase could work better, maybe not. I can hear a whole load of people now shouting "don’t be stupid, base phase is for building an aerobic base, not sharp end. It would just cause burnout to put VO2 in at that point, " but those opinions are all based around traditional science and traditional knowledge which has been primarily focused on men.

In addition, answering the post workout survey is hardly going to help. If my hormones are wild on one day and I feel like rubbish so mark an easy sweetspot workout as hard, and then the system adjusts upcoming workouts, by the time I get to them my hormones may be calmed right down and I could handle way more load that day. Then I answer yeah that workout was easy so Ai ramps up the next workout a bit more but that day hormones are all over the shop again…and repeat.

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57 yo post-menopausal woman here. I’ve been using TR since last November with pretty good success. I am still working on dialing in what approach to take. When I started in November, I had an event I was training for in Feb and followed the plan religiously. After that event, I’ve struggled a bit with what plan to follow. I do a lot of zwift racing so opted to use the getting faster for zwift races approach for 8 weeks. Then I decided I wanted to do a hill climb race in August and switched to a plan aimed at increasing my threshold power, which is what I’m doing now.

I follow the workouts diligently and am on an aggressive HV plan. I am not using the masters option as it feels like my CTL would tank if I did that. I find that by the time my recovery week comes around, I’m definitely ready for it.

My weekly schedule currently looks like this for the first three weeks of a block. Every fourth week is a rest week. I’m riding 9-10 hours a week. I find I can increase the volume or the intensity but not both. Right now the intensity is working, so I’m sticking with that.
Mon - off
Tues - VO2
Wed. - zone 1-2
Thur - sweet spot
Fri - low zone 2
Sat - threshold
Sun - long zone 2

I’ve recently been diagnosed with severe osteopenia, so weight lifting and some plyometrics are a must. I try to only do heavy leg lifting after hard interval sessions and all of my lifting is the minimal required dose to try to build stronger bones and maintain muscle mass. I typically lift 4 days a week, but only for 15-20 min per session to avoid tons of fatigue. 3-5 sets of 5 reps and 4 lifts per day. I also jump (squat jumps, low box jumps) 50 times 5 days per week.

With what I’ve done above, my FTP has increased steadily 1.5-2% per month and I’m optimistic that I’ll hit, and likely surpass, the w/kg goal I set for myself. So far, it feels like the AI adjustments are right for me based on my post workout surveys and how I feel.

Prioritizing rest and making sure you are fueling really well becomes more important than ever.

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Ahhhh, thank you @CCRides this is super interesting. I am impressed at the amount of plyometrics you manage to fit in and your general discipline, very impressive! :clap:

I’ve been on TR a little longer - a couple of years now I think, although with a break last year for some real-life coaching which was centered around training peaks. When I came back to TR in January this year I followed the plans pretty religiously but have found that I faired better when I switched out workouts more. In fact the best I have felt physically all year, and the best bump in FTP, was when I swapped out all the threshold and sweetspot for VO2 for a 3 week block (+ 1 week recovery after). I seem to tolerate VO2 much better than the middle intensities in terms of cortisol/sympathetic response. I was pushing hard at those VO2 sessions too, as they were outside so not limited by the erg mode on the trainer…but despite being fatigued the day after a workout, it was a different systemic feeling to that from sweetspot and threshold work.

I’ve been in some unstructured time for about a month now, I say unstructured, I am still keeping some consistency, TSS load and have been chucking in sprint workouts as they are fun, but it is probably time to stick something back in the calendar, hence the question. The system always gives me the 3 intensity sessions a week and I always change it to masters as I’d rather have two interval sessions and then a hard ride with friends somewhere in the week. I actually think I would do best on just 2 super hard sessions a week, but I don’t want to give up social riding and I am not prepared to go down to just 1 interval session either unless I have to.

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No problem @JoPage :slight_smile:

This article may help understand how TR Custom Plans are built: How TrainerRoad Builds Adaptive Training Plans for You

And yes, the backbone of our custom plans is built through the logic of the macrocycle. Macrocycles need to include different phases that address base fitness and then drive towards more specific fitness. By following a logical pattern, each phase ultimately leads to a particular set of adaptations upon which peak fitness is balanced. These progressive phases are Base , Build , and Specialty phases.

But, the key thing here is that our custom plans are built with your training history, your goals, and training approach.

To say that “all this data is really based on a majority that is an average to strong white male cyclist” is incorrect. Not only because we’ve never stated this but because we’re taking your training history to create a custom plan. What I did state was that we don’t use any sort of age/gender related blocks or templates in place to skew the training in any way. This would also be true to data such as proportions of zones that the system is chucking out for menopausal women.

This is a great segue to also point out that if an athlete is new and has no training data, then we’ll most likely prescribe a low-volume plan to start with, like a human coach would. As the athlete starts completing workouts, the system gathers data specific to them + the post-workout surveys and makes adjustments based on them. We also recommend checking your plan volume at the start of each new training phase to make sure you are on track with the best possible plan volume.

To conclude, I guess the point I am trying to make is that TR has a core training philosophy, and within it, the system uses your training data to create a plan, and then, as you complete workouts, it uses that data (your data) to make adjustments. The system is continuously being trained by your data to fine-tune adjustments specifically to you.

I also saw that on this thread you mentioned:

I also hate the fact that it is always assumed that only those at the pointy end who have years and years of structured training under their belt are allowed to think outside the box with their training and zone set up. It drives me crazy actually, that is it assumed that, if you haven’t trained with power or with structure then you are nowhere near your genetic potential and you have to ‘continue your schooling’ the standard route.

I can see this as a strong sentiment for you. But I wanted to clarify just in case that this is NOT how TrainerRoad operates. We understand that the are many different training philosophies and we have ours, and within ours, we have tools for athletes to adjust their training as they see fit. We always remark on the fact that at an individual level, you know your body best, so if another training philosophy works for you, then that’s great!

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@CCRides, sick! Thanks for sharing!

I am super impressed by your schedule + that you’ve added weight lifting into the mix. :muscle::skin-tone-2:

Sounds like you are pretty in tune with your body. Plus, actively prioritizing rest and making sure you are fueling really well are key aspects of training (overlooked more often than not) that allow our bodies to absorb and regenerate, which translates into fitness advancements.

I am sure you’ll hit your goal! Let us know how it goes :slight_smile:

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Thanks for starting this topic. I am in a slightly different situation and had a full hysterectomy at 20. I have been on proper hormone replacement therapy since then, so higher doses of estrogen and progesterone than standard MRT. I added testosterone about 5 years ago. I train about 20 hours a week, 15 hours on the bike and 50min strength 3-4 times a week (4 in winter, 3 in summer). I do a 30min core/mobility/plyo workout in the morning. For plyo, I am just doing 5 minutes of 30sec on/off different jumping exercises. My justification is getting plyo and SIT taken care of at the same time. I have fallen in love with strength training so that is partially why I am so diligent.

I have been working with a human coach for five years, he retired and I have been using TR since January. I feel like having the experience of the human coach was very helpful. I also feel like TR hates volume (distance rides/Z2) and puts a lot of emphasis on intensity. The intensity emphasis especially the VO2 workouts fit well into Stacy Sims SIT model.

With a human coach, I normally did 1 to 2 days of intensity per week and have found the 3rd day with TR difficult to fit in, especially with trying to get a strength leg workout to not get in the way. I am also prone to over training with too much intensity and find more value in trying to fit in one or two 3-5 hour rides on the weekend.

I think the AI portion of TR is oversold; it seems to stick to the same basic formula no matter which cycle I am in (3 weeks of intensity and one rest week). I think the most important thing is to make sure you are recovering and to be kind to your body. Try to fit in some strength and intensity a few times a week. If you can jump great…

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Hi, @Caro.Gomez-Villafane yes, I understand the principle of macrocycles. What I am commenting on is the way those macrocycles are constituted. Although the build and specialty phases change for the event, the base cycle is building an aerobic base…I am interested to know if the science is suggesting women should build a base differently to men. I guess you are saying everyone is going to build a base differently as everyone is different and the system adjusts for that as you go along?

I’m pretty sure this is not entirely true. Lack of plan compliance is always a huge criticism on both the podcast and here. I actually really like the Trainerroad software precisely because I can move workouts around, replace workouts easily, do everything outdoors when I want to, find harder alternatives, and the calendar software and notes/annotations are great. It makes it easy to see progression in workouts. However, I really don’t like the pressure to conform constantly to the system.

In all honesty, I don’t find the standard base macrocycle does work well for me, mentally at least. I didn’t really enjoy it at the start of the year and I am not looking forward to doing it again now. I was interested to here from other ladies of this age to see how they handle their training just to see if there are any alternatives out there, or whether they had tried different things, found it definitely wasn’t the solution, and returned to following a standard plan. I have loads of options I am considering and am in a place to experiment.

@naia thank you, for your reply. Bless you, that must have been quite a challenge to overcome at 20. Interesting you add in the testosterone. It is very much more popular in America than here in the UK at the moment, but I do know people who have gone down that route. I have heard nothing but good things about the physical improvements on testosterone but I can’t quite bring myself to take it! I am jealous of your time to train, my life used to be similar 10 years ago with many hours on the bike and regularly riding all weekend, but now I’m more 8-12 hours a week if I am lucky. I try and keep consistency rather than focus on time or improvements now and constantly remind myself I am no longer training to be better, I am training to be healthier. Watching a very elderly Mum suffer the consequences of osteoporosis is a constant reminder of how important bone health is, much more than where my FTP is, that is for sure.

I’m lucky that I have a background in heavy lifting and it was the first sport I really got involved with in my early 20s (I was not, in any way, shape or form, a sporty child) so lifting is a habit that I tend to keep. I had dropped it to once a week with all the cycling, but am happy to be back up to lifting 3 x week as a priority. Now I don’t have any events in the calendar I am putting weights, and the associated sore legs, first and not worrying about FTP/cycling although that will change when I start another plan and I will need to balance them a little. I do one session per week, sometimes 2, of plyometrics and have seen considerable improvement in my jump height this last 6 months. I honestly never thought I would be able to jump on a box, never mind a box with plates stacked on the top. Funny how we believe ourselves into being a certain way. I would never have said I’d be any use at sprinting or anaerobic stuff either but I am also seeing a lot of improvements there now I am working on it. Which is nice.

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Not specifically directed at menopausal ladies, but some great advice for deveolping a training plan that works for anyone who is perhaps more interested in a more holistic approach and flexible way to schedule their training. Slept on if I should post this as I’m male, but I’ve seen how much my wife has struggled whilst going through the menopause, not just with training but with life in general, and thought that it might help you construct your own plan, especially as the what the OP said about her VO2 block.

I’ve recently come back to TrainerRoad based on a few things I’d seen online, so far I’m not wholly convince that it’s a right fit for me, I’m going to stick with it until the end of September and see the results, but I’m highly tempted to construct my own plan based on this template after that.

Really hope you don’t mind me posting in this thread, it has been heartbraking at times to see how much my wife has struggled, so just wanted to offer something that may help.

Sustainable Training

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i am 57 and post menopausal. as a data point: i have dramatically changed the way i train over the years and attribute those changes to just wanting to do different things. i spent several years cycling long distance events using groups rides as training. i burned out on both (long distance and group rides) and now do more structured workouts on my own and shorter time trials and shorter events. i have trained in a variety of ways and have found them all to be effective. however, i am getting slower, a change i atribute to age rather than to being post menopausal. my husband’s speed has also slowed and has actually taken a bigger hit than mine. we are both getting older. i don’t sleep as well as i used to sleep when i was younger, but again, neither does my husband or my other male friends. i am now able to ride with my husband more. he used to be too fast for me and we rode the tandem a lot. he is still faster, but the difference is not as great anymore, so we are more comfortable riding together on separate bikes.

i haven’t found that i needed to change my cycling and exercising due to being post menopausal, but i have changed things up over the years. perhaps i was triggered by hormonal changes, but i think i just grew tired of some things and moved on to others. i also have suffered from hip arthritis for several years and finally had my hip replaced last year. the hip arthritis has greatly affected the types of exercises that i have been able to do off the bike. anyway, i have changed the way i exercise a lot over the past few decades, changing sports, changing emphases, but i don’t attribute the changes to hormonal changes nor have i (knowingly) adjusted my activities related to my ovarian function. this, however, is just my own experience and your mileage will likely vary.

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@Chop_Stick - thank you so much for your input and very useful link, much appreciated.

I think I will continue to experiment a bit and, rather than explicitly following the AI generated plan, I will use the TR as like a general gauge and swap workouts in and out as I see fit/how my body is feeling that day, with an aim to mostly increase PL, but with an understanding that some days are not for pushing hard. I am naturally a very active person and rely on regular exercise for my mental health so I have little problem keeping consistency. It is the sustainability of making improvements I now find the hardest to balance, partly because I have been riding for so long and am, unfortunately, somewhere close to my realistic limits and mostly because of the changes to my body now. HRT has helped massively though and I am grateful that I have reached this age at a time when our knowledge is expanding rapidly in how to deal with the hormone shifts. I know women who had to really suffer for a decade or more, feeling like they were totally loosing it, that could have been so easily helped with the modern hormone delivery methods.

That’s not to say it has been easy, I started perimenopause in my early 40s, looking back, but it was never recognised by the medical professionals and I was told I was too young (even though my FSH levels were sky high). In fact I was given a diagnosis of sero-negative arthritis, however, all the aches and pains have disappeared now I am settled on a decent dose of HRT! I felt so awful at one point, constantly anxious, feeling nauseous too, I had horrible internal investigations and the bleeding was destroying me. When it is running out that fast you can’t even make it through a 30 minute riding lesson it is almost impossible to stay on top the anemia. Once the hot flushes became rampant they finally agreed to give me HRT and it has changed everything.

@Ellis thank you so much for your input, it is very interesting to hear your experience. It is interesting how you have changed what you do because you wanted to change it. I guess for me, I didn’t really want to change it as I always loved the super long distance stuff, but I am finding the hormone and life shifts are dictating that I do change it. I have tried to fight it, but have gotten nowhere doing so other than exhausted. Now I have taken a step back and made the decision that I probably won’t ever do anything longer than a 200 km again. However, I just need to find something different now to drive me instead and I can’t quite nail down a goal to focus on. Maybe because I need time away from being so goal orientated at this point in life. It sounds like you have been easily adaptable and super flexible in your approach which is very inspiring. :slight_smile:

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Correct, the plan is in constantly adapting to you, so no plan will be identical :slight_smile:

I’m pretty sure this is not entirely true. Lack of plan compliance is always a huge criticism on both the podcast and here.

Right, but this “criticism” is normally addressed when we take deep dives into the adherence of our plans in specific or if an athlete portrays that they have followed the plan and ended up plateaued, when in reality they only followed 58.7% of the most crucial parts of the plan. This stuff we take very serious and always look for ways to improve.

I guess what I was trying to mainly point out is that we don’t assume that only those at the pointy end who have years and years of structured training under their belt are allowed to think outside the box with their training and zone set up. Or that, if you haven’t trained with power or with structure then you are nowhere near your genetic potential and you have to ‘continue your schooling’ the standard route.

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Jonathan just used the same exact percentage against a different user in regards to workout compliance in the “Has AT plateaued my progress?” thread (post #36). Are you using that as an example or is that an arbitrary example number used around the office for user non-plan compliance?

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@funkinslick I was referencing that exact thread.

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