Outdoor season is ending: indoor rides MUCH harder than expected

Training
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Hi all,

Since spring I’ve basically done all the rides outside, mainly following the mid volume polarized plans combined with LV specialty. After a long summer break from cycling (due to mountaineering trips), my FTP is back at the pre-summer level of around 4.3W/kg. Following a specialty phase I went on holiday for ± 10 days, coinciding with my recovery week.

The first workout after my return was comprised threshold intervals, and went perfectly fine. Then it was too cold, too dark, and too wet outside so I put the bike on the trainer. To get used to training indoors again I did some workouts below my current progression levels, but they still felt much harder than they should: I am barely able to finish intervals that I would consider to be easy outside.

I figured I would adapt, but I’m two weeks in now and workouts are still much harder than they should and I am still really struggling to complete the threshold workouts significantly below my ‘outdoor progression levels’, which feel more like long VO2max workouts. Effectively it feels like my FTP is set 20W too high, which is obviously also reflected in a much higher indoor heart rate when comparing similar indoor/outdoor power numbers

I’m using the same pedal-based power indoors as outdoors, and I know I’m sensitive to heat so I am doing the workouts in a small-scale tornado. Any advice? Should I lower the FTP setting, or keep it as is and do workouts with lower progression levels and slowly climb up the ladder again?

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Hello @Panopticon, welcome back to indoor training, hehe.

I would say that what you’re experiencing is normal after spending 7 months of just riding outdoors. Unlike outside riding, indoor training hold you 100% accountable for hitting the power targets, whereas outside, while the effort is still working the correct energy systems, there is more “leeway” as you are holding yourself accountable to maintain the power target. There are also many other factors that make training “feel” harder indoors.

This is a great blog post that talks about why your indoor and outside power feel different:

By looking at your training history, I would not change your FTP, but rather wait to complete a few more interval workouts, since you’ve only complete 2 so far even though it’s been two weeks. Your Progression Levels are already adjusting on the backend based on your Post-Workout Survey response :slight_smile:

I am confident that once you enter Base 2, this will have settled. If not, we can circle back then and adjust things accordingly!

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I feel my legs “heavier” indoor than outdoor. I also have a hard time spending more than 75/90 min. 60 is doable, but not enjoyable. More than this is tortuous.

The rigidity of the turbo, lack of lateral movement, etc apparently affects me a lot. Also, saddle soreness is terrible, even changing cadence, standing up every once in a while.

With that being said, and after reading very positive things, I decided it was time to change my trainer. I’ve been using an Elite Suito, and just pulled the trigger in a Elite Motion (rollers). It looks like that the mental focus required, some sort of movement, helps a lot. It should arrive Monday and I’m already excited to do TR workouts (honeymoon effect).

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Lucky you, for me it’s the opposite: on the trainer I can generate power, outdoors my average powers are never much higher than 68-76% of my FTP

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If you mean that the listed “average power” for your entire outdoor ride is 68-76% of your FTP, then thats completely normal… Its pretty unlikely that you can roll out your door and hold a steady FTP wattage without encounter stop signs, downhills(coasting), etc… Those low output or zero output periods drag the average power down(a separate argument for the validity of Normalized Power). But if you mean that you are only able to put out that percentage of your FTP when you’re actually trying to, say on a climb or flat TT type effort, then something is off… Meaning your power readings on the indoor or outdoor setup. There is zero physiological reason why you’d be worse off outdoors.

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This is what I mean. Same bike, same pedal based PM. I just find it much easier to generate the power on the trainer than outdoors.
Yesterday outdoor, vs today indoor same bike same, same PM. That 4.5 min @254W yesterday felt so much harder than those 10 min intervals @262W today…

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I don’t have an answer, but its certainly not something I’ve heard of aside from a TT position or similar… Great job providing those charts though, perhaps someone will be able to help you diagnose it. My only insight would be an issue with the PM not calibrating properly before the outside ride or inside ride? This is just a wild guess based off of your Left/Right balance of 43/57…

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I went into intervals.icu and created a graph on the fitness page that shows my weekly time spent pedaling (moving time minus coasting time). I found that, even though I was riding outside over 10 hours per week, I was getting a lot more pedaling time in on the trainer which explains the fatigue I had so I’ve had to work on ramping up that pedaling time.

I’m not doing threshold workouts right now… almost all just zone 2 and below. For me it is time to just build up a base after a long season of all kinds of intensities outdoors and indoors.

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Unfortunately it’s real. I had already contacted Favero support and they ran some diagnostics. It was much worse though and has been improving after modifying my fit but I think it will take a few months more before it settles.

My guess is that ERG mode just makes it easier. I just need to focus on cadence and the power will follow whereas outside I need to focus on much more

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That lack of intensity control on the outside ride made it 2 hours of unstructured tempo, versus an interval session. Nothing wrong wit unstructured tempo. However it doesn’t matter if the interval session was indoor or outdoor, it should have felt easier because it was easier. Just look at 30-sec power and HR.

Lets just focus on 30-sec power

Strong control of power and long green rest intervals:

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versus what looks like a strong unstructured ride:

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where you are putting out much stronger power for majority of the 2 hours. I don’t see any structured intervals in that outdoor workout. Maybe they are hiding in there, but you have no clear rest/recovery/endurance work.

Here is a recent outdoor workout

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4x5 upper threshold followed by some 30/30s jobbers. You can clearly see both the z4 & z6 intervals, plus the rest / z2-endurance intervals. When I do interval work like that, personally I find it easier to put out power.

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You get used to it…

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It was actually only a short 17km/35 min commute where at one point someone got in the back of my wheel and I tried to lose him (without going all out or being to obvious by standing up) but those 4.5 minutes at 254W felt so much harder than even the last of the 10 minutes intervals at 261W indoors

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Did 2 hours yesterday, split it mentally in 3 blocks of 40 min. Each one and got off the bike for a couple of minutes. It was ok.

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It might help if you break down what specifically makes it uncomfortable and address each aspect separately.

For me it has been iterative process:

  • behaviour: after every 10min riding out of saddle for 30sec - 1min with low cadence (~50rpm). And sip sugar and plain water to rinse teeth, no matter whether I feel hunger/thirst or not.
  • at least 2 fans: at back as biggest evaporative area and in front to torso/face to lower RPE
  • trainer rigidity: rocker plate has been biggest leap. Haven’t used rollers myself but you’ll find out it yourself soon enough
  • raise trainer front slightly to compensate missing lifing force from headwind outdoors. From various indoor setup topics I remember 2 degrees is usual recommendation. I am not using this myself because of next item
  • last year finding: clip-on tri-bars (in high praying mantis position). It allows shifting position from saddle sore prone sit bone to pubic bone for extended periods. This is actually so comfortable, I had to set 10min reminder to stand up :slight_smile:

As for mental side, can’t help there. This is so much down to personality. For me it depends on workout intensity:

  • Z1/Z2/Z3: TV/podcasts
  • SS/Z4: music + “Bike the world” videos from Youtube
  • Z5+: mental math, obviously time related :smiley:
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Thanks for sharing this. I’m fateful that the rollers will help. By the way just received an email from FedEx. They arrive tomorrow.

I’ll report back.

Thanks again

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I can see where you are coming from here. I feel that way at times also. I attribute it to external factors outside (wind, balance, rolling resistance,distractions, etc) vs ERG inside (given the smoothness of your inside chart, i assume you WERE using ERG)…

To me, all the additional focuses outside tends to make it feel harder to me, let alone the constant battle to try and keep power fairly smooth (a dip below target almost always results in a slight spike above it)… whereas you don’t have any of it in ERG inside…

My 2¢, FWIW!

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I personally ride outdoor ~3-4% (~10W) higher than indoor. Indoor riding is for me a lot about cooling/having enough fresh air etc. (even position of fan makes a difference or temperature outside as well).

When I return back to indoor I always start with FTP test to avoid struggling with too hard workouts and I am for several seasons pretty consistently starting around 290W…

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Just do some endurance rides first. There can be an adjustment from outside rides with the stop/start or breaks in peddling that just happen. Inside you are pedaling all the time. It is different.

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Your heart rate doesn’t match that perception

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I’m going to jump on this bandwagon. Like others, I’m back inside and am very frustrated with the significant change in perceived intensity. There seems to be the strongest discrepancy at high tempo and above (>214).

OUTDOOR RIDE DATA

  • 10/20: Courmayeur: 4 x 17-19 mins @ 237 - average HR in each interval = 166 (peak HR = 174)
  • 11/1: Itza: 3 x 16-17 mins @ 265 - average HR in each interval = 176 (peak HR = 186)
  • 11/3: Deer: 3 x 30-33 min @ 227-229 - average HR in each interval = 166 (peak HR = 184)
  • 11/8: Cottonwood: 3 x 23-24 min @ 244-249 - average HR in each interval = 171 (peak HR = 179)
  • 11/10: Echo +6: 2 x 60 mins @ 202-227 - average HR during each hour = 157 (peak HR = 173)
    - 11/30: McAdie +5: 4 x (1 min @ 239 and 2 min @ 265 for 15 minutes) - average HR = 178 (peak HR = 187)

INDOOR RIDE DATA

  • 11/27: Loma Alta: 4 x 16-18 mins @ 218-236 - average HR in each interval = 179 (peak HR = 189) - I also had to reduce the final interval’s intensity to be able to finish
  • 11/29: White +1: 60 min @ 189-214 - average HR during the hour = 157 (peak HR = 171)
  • 12/2: Gibralter -1: 90 min @ 189-212 w/30 rest periods - average HR during the 90 min = 161 (peak HR = 170) - I had to reduce this intensity to keep it in tempo perceived exertion range
  • 12/6: Muchachos: 4 x 16-19 mins @ 217-226 - average HR in each interval = 177 (peak HR = 189) - I reduced the intensity of this workout from the start down to 95%

I had a rest week from Nov 13-19 built in and eased back into riding Nov 20-26. It is understandable that my increased perceived exertion indoors is caused by two weeks without structured riding, but I was also able to go for a threshold outdoor workout last week where that somewhat disproves that (see McAdie +5).

For my indoor setup, I’ve attempted to do everything I can to mitigate. The room I ride in is downstairs and normally no warmer than 60-63 degress (we don’t set our thermostat above 66 in the whole house). I open two windows (one directly beside me) to outside air that is currently between 30-40 degrees, have two fans pointing at me (one is the Lasko and one is pointed at my core and the other at my back). And lastly, I also wear a vest with four ice packs that I remove from the freezer right before riding.

My indoor bike is an old Trek road bike that is attached to a direct drive Elite Suito. Some of those outdoor rides are ridden on this exact same bike because it is equipped with a Stages left side only power meter. The other bike I use for outdoor workouts is a Salsa Vaya with a Quarq spider. The outdoor riding power feels very similar on either the Salsa or the Trek.

IMPORTANT: I’ve attached my Garmin head unit to my handlebars while riding INDOORS and the power from the Stages lines up with what the Suito is regulating on ERG mode yet INDOORS the resistance around the pedal stroke feels much harder.

I’m also pretty religious about my outdoor rides and have mastered routes with no or very very minimal breaks in the efforts so that they are as continuous as possible.

Now after all that, - my interval HR for INDOOR sweetspot workouts is at or above my interval HR for OUTDOOR threshold efforts (see Muchachos vs McAdie +5). That is a 30-40 watt difference (>10% FTP) that is producing similar levels of exertion.

My last two INDOOR sweetspot workouts ended with me pushing 224/228 and my heart rate hovering at 189. Whereas my last OUTDOOR threshold workout ended with me pushing 265 and my heart rate hovering at 185.

I understand HR is not “reliable” but I have been training with the same heart rate chest strap for 5+ years and my perceived exertion matches what is reflected in my HR. That final OUTDOOR threshold interval “felt easier” than that last INDOOR sweetspot interval yet there is a significant difference in power output.

Basically this leaves me not even trying a threshold or VO2 max workouts INDOORS because my max heart rate is just above 190 so I’m at my ceiling and don’t have much further to push my body inside.

I’m sorry for the long winded reply. I’ve listened to all the advice, read TR’s article on indoors versus out, power matched my Stages with the Suito yet despite the match, and everything I’ve done, my body and levels are exertion are telling me that how the trainer applies resistance feels very different to how it feels outside.

I’d be totally willing to share my profile (I just need to know how) if that helps, but I wanted to put this here to ask if others feel the same/different and how they’ve fixed this because unlike last winter, I’d like to keep the structure up through the winter.