My FTP is higher outdoors than indoors. How much is depending on the conditions, and the first week or so with indoor training is usually extra hard. It is not too bad now with Norwegian winter temps creating good conditions in my cave, but from past experience it is still lower than what I am capable of producing outside. In the fall and early spring when the temps and humidity are way higher it is pretty bad. I can look forward to a nice sudden over night FTP increase come spring. It has happened before, and I am pretty sure it will happen again next year.
This does not really make sense. The watts is a measure of the work you apply through the pedals, not how the trainer applies resistance (which is, or at least should be, evenly). Everything else you are writing indicates that your indoor FTP is lower than your outdoors FTP, and in that regard it do make sense in a way since it feels different to pedal above FTP, than at or below.
HR is not unreliable. Yes, it can act differently to a set power output from day to day due to varying reasons, but it should be very reliable unless something is wrong.
Do an indoor FTP test and commence with your structure!
Just one thing I’ve noticed: the software and mode you use to control the trainer can make a real difference to feel and perceived difficulty.
Using the phone app to control my trainer, enabling power match and using erg mode, gives a relatively road like feel and (assuming sufficient cooling) gives me a pretty similar indoor/outdoor power, HR, and RPE. HR is maybe 3-4bpm higher indoors as the workout goes on, but I suspect a second fan would address that.
However, if I try and attempt a workout without erg mode in Zwift, then the ride feel is very different (feels like riding through mud) and it is much harder.
People with more technical expertise than me can perhaps explain why, but it’s worth noting that platform and setting choice definitely can make a difference.
Perhaps I missed it, but what gearing are you using inside on the trainer vs outside on your bikes. I am wondering if you have played with trainer gearing to see if you can get a “feel” that is closer to outside? Certainly not a magic bullet solution, but one more angle to check since you seem to have taken plenty of the common steps already.
Hi! You said you are using the same pedal based power meter inside and outside.
Are you using a dumb trainer then? Or are you also using a smart trainer inside?
RPE indoors is usually higher than outdoors due to less environmental stimulus, more issues with heat management, etc.Because I haven’t seen it mentioned by others I’ll add the following.
For me, I also run into issues when going back onto the trainer due to L/R imbalance. When I ride outside, I tend to become very right leg dominant after a few months… because I can, because of the better freewheel effect when on the actual bike.
When I ride inside on the trainer I tend to use erg mode, which has less freewheel effect. And after a few months on the trainer my L/R balance ends up being very equal.
But then after a few months outside again it comes back.
If you have a relatively high L/R imbalance after riding outside for a few months, and you’re riding the trainer in erg mode, the RPE for the same power and interval duration goes up, because you’re forced to use your weaker leg more. Same idea if you’re using a dumb trainer that works by applying resistance to the wheel - this resistance also decreases freewheel effect, making leg imbalances more prominent.
That is potentially true, but it is entirely dependent on your chosen gearing. Some trainers have wattage floor/ceiling limits, but many of the mid to upper end ones allow a large range between low & high gearing. As such, higher gearing used by some riders will give a very fast flywheel effect. It’s a factor that is worth testing by each rider to dial in what suits them best.
This is the case for me. Erg makes hitting certain power numbers indoors easier because there is no shifting at all, not the shifting is hard, but that erg puts me in my optimal cadence (which is way higher than I ever do outdoors).
I can hit indoor power outdoors, but I think erg is super easy (too easy)
Probably semantics, but cadence is purely up to the input from the rider… not ERG mode. ERG mode allows a rider to hit a specific cadence to power combo that may not be achievable in other trainer modes due to the limits of gearing on the cassette relative to the power target.
But in all cases with ERG mode, cadence used is entirely in the hands (feet ) of the rider on the bike.
Likely a tangent or pure OT, but I wonder if using totally different cadence inside vs outside leads to issues or shortcomings? Mainly pointing to the bro-science ideal of “train how you want to race”.
I’ve seen similar comments where riders use different ranges inside vs outside and I think that could be a missed opportunity of making training more directly applicable to our outside needs.
@mcneese.chad Thanks for the note. I’ve done some playing around with different gearing, but could spend more time experimenting. I’ve primarily tried different gearing while also adjusting the level of resistance in resistance mode rather than ERG mode. I’ve mostly tried riding a higher gear and with as little resistance from the trainer as possible to reduce its effects on the “feel.” That was a while ago so I can revisit this type of experimenting.
It is interesting how the feel of various modes can vary person to person. For me, recovery or endurance rides have a similar feel when comparing Erg and Standard mode. But as the intensity increases and watts increase, Erg feels like I am riding up a slight incline (or in a bigger gear), whereas standard mode feels like I am riding on on the flats.
Ohhhh, these smart bikes are a different world when it comes to different trainer modes. I can’t claim to know the impact on these as what I have read is somewhat confusing related to impact of “gearing” in ERG since the physical belt and pulley system is a fixed ratio in all cases.
Chad’s gearing observation is the number two factor for me after heat; it’s right up there.
I live in a relatively flat area. Some false flats and block headwinds will require a pedal power dynamic similar to a low to medium grade hill, but generally that’s not the case. So, the smaller gear I use on the trainer can require several weeks of indoor riding before my inside and outside power get close if I haven’t been riding indoors for a while.
I don’t change my indoor gearing, though, I think it helps when I’m outside and do need that full-circle power.
Hey there! The transition from outside riding to the trainer can be a tough one for sure.
We took a look into your account, and we think a very likely contributing factor here boils down to your power meters.
After going through some ride logs, it seems as though your Stages power meter didn’t PowerMatch with your Suito trainer and that the power was coming directly from your Suito itself. We’d recommend trying PowerMatch again and double-checking that it is indeed enabled while you’re using TR so that the power isn’t coming from your trainer if that isn’t what you’re used to using.
There is also probably a difference between your Stages PM and your Quarq – even if it’s “only” a few % off, that can translate into large power discrepancies – especially as you get into higher wattages during your intervals.
It could be worth trying an indoor session using your Quarq power meter to see if that gets your RPE closer to what you’re feeling outside.
Finally, there is, of course, an adjustment period as you come inside. As @Lanken mentioned, it might be worth doing an FTP assessment indoors on the trainer and continuing your training after updating your zones. Your description of your cooling situation sounds pretty dialed, which makes me think your troubles are probably coming from a combination of 3 different power sources available to you mixed in with the adjustment to your training conditions from outside to inside.
Try out some of those adjustments and keep us posted on how things go!
If you’re using an Elite Suito as power source I can tell you for experience, it measures lower (way lower) than my assioma pedals. It’s something around 20w lower on 250w.
Suito is known for underestimate power. Also, running Suito as trainer, but power from pedals makes things very spiky. They keep battling each other, pedal, TR, Suito to adjust the power. It’s kind of annoying and you can feel the resistance changing a lot.
I find that, just in terms of how my quads feel at around 90 rpm, there is around a 35 watts discrepancy between a simple endurance pace on the road (flats) vs. Wahoo Kickr in ERG mode. Heart rate isn’t an issue, it’s just how the muscles feel. I’m guessing it has to do with where the power measurements are taken (crank vs. hub) and the fact that on the road you’ve got momentum keeping you moving forward so it feels easier on the muscles.
I just find that on my Kickr v.5, erg mode just always feels like riding thru mud. It’s ok, you can get used to it, but it is not like riding outside. Resistance mode just feels better. Maybe try that.
Thanks for the info. Is there any association between ERG watts and Resistance? Meaning, R1@90RPM = starting at 100 w, R2@90RPM = starting at 200 watts, etc. Guess I can experiment based on feel and watts on screen.
) of the rider on the bike.