Not long enough Longsessions

[mwglow15]

I can’t say what works best for the TR system. But I know for myself, TR would never ever prescribe the VO2 workouts that I need to elicit adaptations. My VO2 interval power is such a high percentage of FTP that I don’t think the workout library has workouts to accommodate it. My most recent block had me doing 6x3 at between 140 and 125% of FTP.

So I do think that for some people that fall far enough out of the bell curve they just have to break out of the plan.

@JoPage

So as a theoretical example, if I do say 4 x 2 min intervals and I’m 30 watts over (because they are so short), and then I do 4 x 4 intervals and I am 20 watts over, does that mean my progression is less than it should be/I’m not trying hard enough because actually I should continue to be 30 watts over? Or doesn’t it matter?

I mean it totally depends on what the workout’s power target is. But IMO, outside of just being a general guide, you shouldn’t be looking at power that closely during the VO2 intervals. Each interval should basically be a max effort. (maybe the first interval is 90-95% so you don’t blow up). But you will be doing less power over 4 minutes than you did over 2. But you’re still just comparing your personal power curve to a theoretical average power curve so it’s hard (impossible) to know what your workout outcome will be compared to what the AI model will tell you to do. But it’s probably safe to say if you’re overshooting the 2 min recommendations by that much then you’ll also overshoot the 4 min.

I guess idk what your absolute power is on these intervals but my VO2 intervals will vary up to like 10% between intervals and like 15% from the first minute to the last 2 minutes of a 3 minute interval.

[JoPage]

Ahh thanks for the reply. So, go all out, see what happens. I guess that, if my ‘all out’ begins to drop off and get closer to the power curve that it is expected to be on, eventually I won’t hit the target power and I will know at that point that I definitely haven’t nailed the workout and need to mark it as failed and then the system will identify that and ease off ramping up the workouts.

@mwglow15

But you’re still just comparing your personal power curve to a theoretical average power curve so it’s hard (impossible) to know what your workout outcome will be compared to what the AI model will tell you to do

Yeah, I see what you mean there. Thanks.

[eddiegrinwald]

This is a great question.

As of right now, your VO2 Max Progression Level is at 5.2, which means that there is still a lot of room to grow there. Rather than manually up your power for each workout you’re prescribed, I’d recommend using Workout Alternates to pick a harder workout to start with instead.

This is a better way to communicate your efforts to TR, as you’re now telling the software how the workout really felt in the post-workout survey rather than telling it what it felt like when you went way over the power targets. This makes for a more straightforward analysis of your work and ultimately will help you get the right workouts prescribed in the first place.

An example of this is your workout scheduled for today is 4x5 at 105-108%. There are a number of different alternates that might be better suited to your abilities, such as 6x4 at 110-112%, 4x6 at 110-112%, 5x5 at 113-116%, or 5x6 at 115%. All of those are alternates to the workout that’s scheduled for today, and I have a feeling that some of those might be challenging.

Not all VO2 workouts are meant to elicit the same adaptations, and those 2-minute efforts that you described aren’t intended to necessarily force you into your true VO2 Max. Longer, more traditional efforts such as the x4s or x5s are mainly focused on increasing your stroke volume by getting to that “all-out” feeling and spending time at your VO2 Max, but the workouts with shorter duration intervals have different goals in mind.

The same workaround goes for those shorter interval workouts as well, though. I’m currently on an XCO plan which includes lots of microbursts/on-offs, and I can tell you that there are plenty of hard VO2 workouts in that category. They don’t feel exactly the same as the traditional x4s and x5s, but they are plenty hard in their own way.

I think you just need to start tackling some workouts that are more fitting to your abilities. Taking on the lower-level workouts and then overshooting the power targets isn’t communicating to the software what you’re actually doing well enough. Especially since you’re doing most of these workouts outside. Use Workout Alternates to pick some harder workouts and give them a go. At a level 5.4, you’ve got plenty of workouts left in the library that are much harder than what you’ve been doing recently.

Let me know if this helps and if you have any other questions. I’d like to help ensure that you’re on the right path here, and I know we can get things back on track for you!

[JoPage]

Ahh thanks Eddie, that makes total sense. I just did 3 weeks (then the rest week) focusing on VO2 (like a bad TR user and totally ignoring the plan and replaced the threshold stuff with VO2) and wasnt really sure how I would handle it physically so I was cautious with selecting the workout progression.

Tbf I’m knackered after a crazy work day today so will probably leave the planned workout in tonight but if I’m feeling good in future I’ll ramp up the PL.

[grwoolf]

@JoPage

Tbf I’m knackered after a crazy work day today so will probably leave the planned workout in tonight but if I’m feeling good in future I’ll ramp up the PL.

Something I find useful related to alternate workouts-

There are many times where I look at a planned workout and debate whether to try something a little harder (or easier) depending on how I’m feeling, how rested/fueled I am, other life stresses, etc. I’ll look at a couple alternates and I keep those in mind when I start the planned workout. But I won’t swap the harder workout before I start because I’m not sure if it’s appropriate until I’m into the intervals. If I’m feeling good once I get started, I’ll make a game time decision and attempt the harder workout. If I complete it, I’ll just adjust my TR calendar after I’m done to reflect the workout I actually did (so the system ramps the next workout appropriately). That approach works best for workouts flagged as “outside” since you can change the workout association without deleting the workout. You can do outside workouts inside, it’s a handy way to allow the workout association to be swapped after you are done. I don’t think there is an easy way to change a workout association after the fact if you do it in the TR app, but I’ve never tried. I can think of some ways to do it, but it would be a pain.

Another option to make the system ramp quicker after you complete a harder workout than the planned one is to understate how hard it was in the post workout survey. The workout might have been “hard” because you added 20 watts to every interval, but you can “guestimate” how easy the original workout would have been if you had executed as planned. Answering “moderate” will make the next workout jump higher, even though the actual work performed was hard. I don’t love that approach since you are basically putting bad data in the system to trick it into ramping the future workouts higher, but it seems to work ok when I’ve done it in the past.

From what I understand, TR will eventually be looking at actual work performed rather than the planned workout and we’ll be able to make adjustments to workouts as we’re doing them and the system will recognize the change. Until that point, these are a couple work-arounds I’ve found useful.

[eddiegrinwald]

I just want to make sure everyone’s aware that we don’t support “guestimating” on your post-workout surveys.

As mentioned above, that’s only putting bad data in the system…

Trying to “trick” the software won’t end well. Ask me how I know!

[JoPage]

Thanks @grwoolf I spend a lot of time swapping out workouts to make them fit around the terrain (I dont know about you but I wish it were easier to select outside alternatives - maybe its just me but I find I have to change everything back to inside, then select the alternative, then change back to outside), and sometimes selecting a higher PL because I’m feeling good, but I have never thought about having a couple of rides in mind and seeing how I feel after the warm up. That’s a great idea!

When I read the second part of your reply about guesstimating, I did chuckle and thought “poor @eddiegrinwald will be having kittens at that reply”

Don’t panic Eddie, I’m not smart enough to game the system

[eddiegrinwald]

@JoPage

Don’t panic Eddie, I’m not smart enough to game the system

Or are you so smart that you choose not to?

[JoPage]

Definitely not that smart

If I was that smart, I wouldn’t be constantly changing my workouts, blowing up, destroying my legs, eating chocolate and generally doing most of the things I shouldn’t be

[grwoolf]

@JoPage

When I read the second part of your reply about guesstimating, I did chuckle and thought “poor @eddiegrinwald will be having kittens at that reply”

Yeah, TR support isn’t a fan of some of these work-arounds (with good justification) and many of these work-arounds come with risk. I still think it’s good that TR allows users to throw bad ideas around to work around system limitations, sometimes they can help individual users. I try to put clear warnings on the particularly bad hacks, but I probably should have kept that second option to myself. I’ve used it a couple times and it’s worked in those cases, but it really is a terrible approach.

@JoPage

If I was that smart, I wouldn’t be constantly changing my workouts, blowing up, destroying my legs, eating chocolate and generally doing most of the things I shouldn’t be

Sounds like a whole lot of fun and learning to me. One of the best things about cycling for me is that you can do it for decades and still have a healthy mix of failure and success. Limitless curiosity and exploration. Many other hobbies/activities tend to get stale once you figure them out.

One thing you have clearly figured out - chocolate is a key part of any smart training program.

[JoPage]

This is so true that cycling is a never ending journey of learning new things.

@grwoolf

Sounds like a whole lot of fun and learning to me. One of the best things about cycling for me is that you can do it for decades and still have a healthy mix of failure and success. Limitless curiosity and exploration. Many other hobbies/activities tend to get stale once you figure them out.

One thing you have clearly figured out - chocolate is a key part of any smart training program.

This is so true! Particularly as our bodies, the technology and the trails/roads are continuously changing too. I’ve just posted in the podcast thread asking for an episode focusing on perimenopause/menopause. It’s been by far the biggest challenge I have had to deal with, both mentally and physically and it’s been a real case of trial and error to find out what works and what doesn’t.

The thing is, I know what works to make me feel healthy now, mostly. However, that never really ties in to the training plans, and it definitely doesn’t tie in with riding big miles any more…but I WANT to ride the big miles, and I WANT to push myself doing threshold training that I know doesn’t suit me metabolically. So I am constantly at war with my own body for sulking when I ask it to just do what it used to when I was in my 30s.

[ivegotabike]

If you haven’t already, look up Jasmijn Muller / Be The Egg Cycle Coaching. She knows a thing or two about endurance cycling training.

Jasmijn Muller at Be The Egg Cycle Coaching

[nebur86]

after my first full winter of TR I had my first “long” ride 2 weeks ago and was surprised how easily it went.. just need to fuel well.
Tomorrow Amstel 150km is the next test. The TR plan consisted of 3x 1h interval, 1x 1h endurance 1x2h endurance. And the only adjustment I made was planning 2 longer rides of 3h instead of 2h to see where I stand.

[Power13]

Good luck and enjoy the day!