There will be very subtle, slight movement even when seated. You just don’t notice the impact pedaling forces have on a bike’s movement when riding outside because you are in motion.
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Can you expand on what you mean here? For many people, the movement does add comfort. I think maybe you’re saying you understand that to be true, but then if so, I don’t understand the “just marketing” comment?
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- Again, it doesn’t have to in order to work as intended.
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No, it’s not. The comfort (specifically when seated) comes from the more subtle & minimal movements vs the more exaggerated ones too often emphasized in the marketing. To that extent, we agree.
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These standing & sprinting efforts are how most people try to demonstrate these devices. But the reality is that most people probably spend less than 5% of their time on a bike trainer standing.
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The overwhelming majority of use is seated which leads to far less motion to see in videos (not flashy enough to “sell”). This can be seen in the review videos and it so subtle that people quickly forget about it unless they stand or get on/off the bike (as noted specifically by Ray in his video).
- See above, demos are lame IMO and don’t focus on the reality that most people experience, and the place where the greatest comfort gains are actually felt.
- I guess you missed the introduction of the Tacx Neo Motion Plates a year and a half ago? We saw the same critique (motion is ridiculous, etc.) when those were released. Once people actually got and tried them, they found the comfort present especially when seated.
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And this harkens back to my initial debut of my Rockit Launcher back in Nov 2017. The criticism was immediate and harsh, calling into question me and anyone else using these. Slowly but surely, people either took time to understand the real function and benefit… or actually got to ride on one and feel what it really does vs the perception.
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I freely admit that motion setups are not for everyone. We’ve seen more than a handful in my group buy and try rockers only to dislike the feel or not get enough benefit to justify the space and any related hassle (pretty much requires a dedicated setup and space).
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But without a totally unscientific survey, I would guess that the sticky adoption rate of people trying and keeping some motion system is well over 50% and perhaps approaching 70%. I say this because the it’s far more common to read about complaints in this day and age vs compliments. With that in mind, the number of “I tried rockers hand hated them” vs “I love my rocker” are stacked well in the “keep it” category.
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No, not just when you are inefficient. That movement is there all the time, no matter how efficient you are.
Again, you don’t notice it because it is “masked” by your forward motion. There have been multiple studies done where they analyze how a bike’s tires track…the idea that they go in a straight line, always forward is factually wrong.
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For a more “regular” short use video, I present my two demos of the E-Flex versions:
Note the very small amount of fore-aft motion when seated. This is where the “rubber meets the road” with respect to the comfort side of the equation. It is true that the reality (for me at least) is the small lean & fore-aft motions are the feature that give the most saddle pressure relief.
And even in my normal paced and ridden standing sections, the actual fore-aft motion (after the initial transition) is small compared to the flashy videos we usually see. It is maybe a range of 2" or so at a guess. I actually have stickers that I watch when standing and play with my form to cut motion to a minimum. But there is always some motion with a setup like this because were not perfectly balanced machines. Our bodies in motion swing mass in various directions that don’t cancel out to a null force. This is what we see in F-A motion.
I used a pure lean angle rocker for many years and got good seated comfort improvement. Others have mentioned they feel that the fore-aft motion is the greater influence in their comfort gains. I have not tested a pure fore-aft setup, but would expect gains from that even if it was this small motion above without any lean.
But I feel the best overall setup (with comfort as the priority) is one that includes a bit of motion in both directions. I have what I consider to the one of the most realistic setups around, but it is a very acquired taste that most don’t like. I am well outside the bell curve because my personal E-Flex setup is about 80% of the way to feeling like you are on rollers. It takes real rider input and attention. More than once I’ve has some “Oh SH!T” moments an nearly ended up on my head. That aspect is part of why I know that there is a definite limit to the “realism” that most people want for an indoor setup.
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Yup, I keep meaning to shoot a video showing the pulsing that actually happens but goes unnoticed by nearly everyone. I think I can catch it with a motion sensing app on my phone, and I even considered using simple bubble levels to show there is not pure-even power when rolling.
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This pulsing is speed and power related, where it will be far more apparent in cases like standing climgs on steeper pitches, but I firmly believe it’s present in even flat rolling at some speeds and power levels.
Whether you are efficient or inefficient or whether the trainer moves “realistically” compared to riding outside is immaterial.
The movement is about increased user comfort, not recreating outdoor riding conditions. And everyone can benefit from that, whether you are efficient or inefficient.
Whether that has value to you is an individual choice…
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- And there we have it… personal preference rules here just like everywhere else in this little world
We know that PP runs the full range in this zone from sticking with pure rigid to using motion rollers and every possible step between. I just want people to be aware of the options and pick what suits them best, end of story.
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Maybe movement itself does not make me better cyclist, I don’t know. But riding rigid setup caused me backside issues when reached 10-11h/week volume. Last winter, after starting using rocker plate, could hit 12-14h/week consistently with no issues. This additional volume definitely makes me better cyclist.
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Yup, that’s the difference right there. These motions can make the same duration more comfortable (and hopefully enjoyable) and/or allow people to ride longer for the same comfort in the end. Each of those has the potential to help a rider improve performance in the long run.
I don’t personally push these as a “performance tool” specifically since they are secondary benefits that are certainly not guaranteed, but I sure hear about people getting more from their time on the bike (whether that be better in the same time or more time overall), which is a ‘win’ no matter how you cut it in my book. 
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You will love it. It breaks up the indoor boredom. As stated if you are on a concrete floor be sure to put a mat under it so it does walk.
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This can be taken as pure marketing to a degree but the reactions, observations and comments from these riders is a direct mirror of the most common statements I’ve seen & heard since heading down the motion trainer life.
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If the
If it wasn’t how the bike moves, then the the slider on the kickr move would stay perfectly still and there would be no forwards and backward motion. And yet there is.
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Kinda, but the main issue here is that a typical bike in use is rolling forward in 3D space, with a large amount of inertia. That motion servers to mask any “pulse” or “surge” that is present in various conditions despite the more visible forward motion.
What we really see with these fore-aft motion trainer setups is just how unbalanced the human body is when pedaling a bike. This new trainer motion degree of freedom clearly shows the result of our legs swinging through space and even though it is mirrored at 180* between each side, the forces don’t totally cancel out.
This unbalanced motion was previously seen on rigid rollers for decades (via a bit of fore-aft rock when sloppy, to the point of some riders hopping off the rollers with extreme cadence or sloppiness). What sort of evolved from that motion was the aim of smoothing out our pedaling action to look “smooth” on rollers was a target of the times.
When Inside Ride introduced their E-Motion rollers (the first real bike trainer device with legit fore-aft motion) it was able to more clearly show that unbalanced action we produce. The pulsing can be reduced but it still remains for even well trained and smooth pedaling riders since the mass is still out of balance, at least in a fore-aft direction.
I keep wanting to slap on my motion sensing app or even a simple bubble level on my bike to show that there can be pulsing on a bike when riding outside as well. It is more likely to be seen in slower riding, particularly on climbs where inertia is lower. But I firmly believe it’s present even though it is largely hidden with our forward movement in space.
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That’s exactly what I’m saying. It’s relative motion between the bike and the human. If there was no relative motion then you could happily ride the kickr move and it wouldn’t slide at all. This doesn’t change just because you are out in the road.
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100%…while the Inside Ride rollers are probably the illustration, another example of the “pulse” or “surge” movement inherent in cycling is simply standing while riding. While the bike is still moving forward, it slows down significantly (what others view as the bike going backwards). IOW, there is a reverse surge (or pulse) aspect to it.
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Yup, that is the same basic display, just a different action/reaction. In that case, it’s related to us lifting & shifting our body overall, but mainly our torso since it’s the greater center of mass in that action. We see that standing up is effectively “moving forward” from the saddle as we rise up.
This forward motion with a large mass as compared to the much lower bike mass result in a “rearward” shift of the bike. More easily seen when someone pedaling close behind sees a decent gap shrink as the rider in front “kicks the bike backwards” towards them.
Here’s the part that trips up lots of people in this discussion:
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If the forward cycling speed is anything more than a walking pace, the actual result is not “rearward” shift of the bike in space. It is a “slow down” or reduction of the forward speed for a short moment.
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But to a rider right on their rear wheel, the relative direction is certainly “backwards” towards them as they are maintaining the forward cycling speed present when both were rolling and moments before the leading rider stood up.
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This kickback can be minimized with rider practice and is considered one sign of a rider with some decent pack skills in one avenue at least. But the reality is that the motion is nearly always forward with a delta in the rate as the true change, not a reversal as it seems to many.
Related, but this action in reverse is how a “bike throw” works since the bike is lighter and can be “pushed ahead” of the rider mass when crossing a finish line. Fun stuff… right?
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An extreme example of this is skydiving…two skydivers are plummeting at the same speed, but when one pulls their chute, they appear to go UP. That, of course, is impossible…but relative to the diver in freefall, that is how it appears.
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I went from a side to side rocker with no for/aft motion to the inride system based on a number of reasons, a big one being @mcneese.chad Chads comments on how good it is. I liked my rocker but the foot print wasn’t great and fighting with pressures always annoyed me. I thought the inside ride would be prefect but I ended up locking out the rocking to just have the fore/aft movement and I’m amazed how much that helps.
I think this trainer/bike will be great. Will it be worth the price? Depends on your point of view, are enve wheels worth the price delta over light aluminum wheels?
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I’m very tempted to get one of these new Kickrs to replace my smart bike. I love my SB20, but the complete lack of movement is a literal pain in my ass. Doing anything longer than two hours without breaks on that thing is unthinkable.
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