I’ll iterate - I’m really really happy with how the new plans look. I was thinking that id need to wait for AT, but now I can get cracking.
The new levels are fantastic. I’ve not cycled in months and I’m planning SSB from next week. I saw that the starting workout levels for sweetspot and threshold were 4.0, and it was so easy to find level 3.0 / 3.5 workouts as warmups in these few days before I start.
I agree, by the way. Yes, we all love what we know, yes, it’s nice to see others who are on the same week of the same program and are struggling through the same workouts, it’s nice to compare your results on Mary Austin with the ones from the previous cycles - but you can’t have that and training plans that adapt to you. And having the ability - even without AT - to easily substitute easier or more challenging workouts in the same category, using objective criteria, is a big plus.
I think this is a key point. The plan changes are heavily predicated on all-in use of ramp-test FTPs.
This year, I have my FTP set at my best demonstrated 1 hr power and am finding the plans suitably challenging in all zones and often bias up a little on VO2+ work as my 1 min power is disproportionately strong relative to threshold.
If I did a ramp test, I would absolutely get an inflated steady state FTP as always happened in the past and would have no ability to do an hour TT at that value. And in that scenario, I would then get crushed on longer work in build, and lowering the workout progression level would absolutely improve compliance and outcomes. This new plan proposal will definitely fix that problem. And since it’s a common problem for many TR users, and TR is all-in on the ramp test, I absolutely see the logic from their perspective.
However, a lot remains to convince many of us that we should:
Essentially, the conclusion seems to be that instead of doing something like a classic 2x20, you should do something like two sets of 3x5 at a higher power target that would be much lower on the workout progression scale than a 2x20, and less total “volume” however you measure that.
Put more simply, the conclusion I would take away is that for longer intervals, reduce volume, increase intensity - with the increased intensity coming from the inflated FTP, in shorter interval workouts that would be too easy with your true long-form FTP. Interesting conclusion if it can be supported with data.
Many of the more experienced users on here have worked past relying on the ramp test, highly respected coaches like Kolie Moore have made compelling cases for doing so, and I suspect a significant majority of the people asking for the old plans to remain available are in that bucket as well. Given how hard it was to figure all of that out, such unplanned disruption with no AT to help simplify this convergence in workout selection leads to a significant backlash as seen in this thread.
It’ll be important to see data that goes beyond improving compliance to ramp-test derived FTP workouts and actually shows benefit over users that have set their FTP based on longer form tests that are generally more accepted among cycling coaches for users that have learned to pace appropriately.
I didn’t read the “ramp-test” part in @Jonathan’s post. Many of us indeed use other ways of assessing FTP, and nothing in old or new plans is predicated on which method you use as far as I can see. Yes, the plans (as all TR plans did/do) include ramp tests. But that does not mean you a) have to do that test, or b) have to use the results thereof if you do.
As always: your mileage may vary.
I doublechecked my ramp test result with longer FTP tests and the results were very close.
That’s what we can read in the other threads: for some, the ramp test is perfectly fine, for others not.
Same with every cookie cutter plan.
That’s why adjustment to personal needs is so important, whether it’s done by AT or our TR coached brain.
For those who want the legacy plans back, there’s a pretty simple solution. Open the web app, calendar view. Go back in time to the last time (or any time) you did the plan you want. Week by week, right side, Copy Week, put the copy where you want it. That’s one Copy/Paste per week. Takes about 2 minutes for an 8-week plan. Done.
It’s likely implicit to everything, as is the fact that the inertia is moving this all towards AT - which if works as intended eradicates issues with starting too easy or too hard in a plan.
Yeah, it’s gonna depend on a lot of factors for sure. Some people everything works fine, some it doesn’t. I’d wager depending on what stage of development you are in, it will sometimes work and sometimes not. For me ramp tests and plans did not go together. Maybe now they will, but I’m kind of in the middle of an important training block to me and not really in the mood to experiment too much.
AT does reduce somewhat the impact of FTP estimation errors, but does not remove them. Threshold remains threshold, the only thing AT can do is give you more or less of it, not change its level. I’m a low ramp-tester, since my high end power is weak; I’ll keep doing what I’ve been doing, which is using threshold workouts to assess the right FTP level to use, and expect VO2Max workouts to require intensity reduction.
Correct - AT is intended to address the fact that ramp tests don’t give sufficiently accurate threshold numbers, or how capable you are of holding threshold numbers (or other power zones).
I tend to over test on the ramp by 2-3%. Doesn’t kill me until I try doing sustained efforts at or above threshold. And even though I seem to over test on the ramp, I always have to reduce any TR vo2 workouts over 90 seconds by 3-5% to survive them.
I’d venture AT is much more about adapting progressions in each area to your own abilities. It does not a) change what threshold is/isn’t, or b) change the fact that 120% of FTP may be too low or too high a VO2Max level for a given individual.
Exactly my situation. I had my FTP set at 211W. Did an open Dual Carriageway 25mTT in 1:01 for an average of … 211W. (NP 214W, VI 1.014)
Did Ramp test. FTP came out as 225. Can’t possibly hold that level at the moment. (It will return no doubt).
Decided to split difference and set FTP to 218. Even then with VO2 sesions being cleared at VO2 even though at 6.4 and 6.8, I struggle around 7.2.
I have other 25mTTs coming up. I will see how they go.
I guess as long as I am happy with my FTP setting, and can adjust it to what I think is realistic, then clear, the workouts and progress, it does not matter that much.
As an aside I do an outside 2x20 Z3/4 or 4x20 SS quite regularly.
Are we debating or agreeing, because nothing I said is intended to disagree with what you just wrote?
Everything anyone is trying to do better is set appropriate targets for progress.
Not always that simple, what if you’ve not done that volume variant before, you fancy doing short power build instead of sustained power, or you’ve not done that particular speciality before?
Both are basically right.
Adaptive Training will handle your FTP being wrong in that there’s a monumental difference between a level 3 Threshold and a level 8 Threshold… so while both are “Threshold sessions” in the system, you’ll be able to find the level to that’s actually Threshold for you.
Once your initial level is dialled in, Adaptive Training will then mostly be about getting your progression right.
I think maybe the best way at this point to make everybody happy is make it an option to go and enable legacy plans, similar to how you have to enable polarized plans.
Then you don’t have the argument of “I always did that plan and I’m dialed for it”.
I clicked update on all my training blocks and am fairly positive that it indeed updated them, but when I click on a block, the update button is still showing up. Is this supposed to happen?
Yeah, I think it is always there and not “conditional” in the sense of knowing you already did the update.
My thoughts also. My advice (and what I remember from other coaches / podcasts) for most users would be to set a more conservative / 1 hour FTP and do longer intervals. For me this means to progress through the zones to workouts with levels > 8.
But I’m coming from a WKO / Cusick…extensive aerobic…intensive aerobic…VO2max progression style.
And what I’m not getting is that TR seems to prefer (or be more cautious by using) shorter intervals on higher (maybe ramp test inflated) FTP. I’d say keep FTP conservative and progress high into workout levels (before retest) instead of testing/nudging FTP regularly and staying lower on workout levels (and therefore lower interval length - even if FTP is bit higher). (Maybe something for the pod to discuss @Jonathan)
Still happy with the workout levels (good guide for all training approaches) and will be interesting to see them unfold with AT!