I have no idea, but I guess TR have done their homework and maybe legacy TR users are only a very small % so will make a negligable impact on revenue.
Plus TR made a promise not to raise pricing for them. However I am surprised they have access to all new features.
I hear you. Did read about that promise. Itâs hard to break a promise. And the contingent of legacy users guess about being small is likely correct, hence my comment about the tail wagging the dog that didnât come across too well, but it gives a very good metaphor.
I guess the problem could be alleviated where all users pay equally and get full service product. Only thing a user can be unhappy about is either glitches in the training software, TR servers going down, no new products etc. and these would be issues to all users across a leveled playing field.
If you had to hazard another guess, do you think current TR subscription fees would be as high as they are now if there wasnât a legacy pricing structure for X number of TR users? What do you guess X number represents in terms of % of current users?
I guess the tail of a dog likely represents 5% of its body, if that. I do guess though that X number is greater than 5% and closer to 30% of being legacy TR users. Thatâs a big promise to break to 30% than what it would be to 5%.
Yikes, even breaking a promise to one person is not ideal. In any
matter. But one person should not dictate the existence of a service when it could be precluding the increase in profits of said service.
I guess I have said to much. But it is all a guess, as that is what it seems to enable viewpoints to pass. A guess is nearly an affirmed assumption, I guess.
Yes. I think the fees are set by what they think the market will bear and what cyclists will consider reasonable value. If they could raise the price 50% and generate significantly higher overall revenue then they would - it would allow them to hire more people and move faster on their product roadmap.
Equally there are scenarios where I think fees would drop. E.g. If Zwift or Wahoo were offering a compelling alternative to TR at a lower price, or if cost of living meant enough people were cancelling subscriptions then I could see them needing to reduce fees to maintain their customer base even if that meant putting some development on hold.
Much like the shortening of days portends that winter is near for those of us in the northern hemisphere, the TR Legacy Pricing thread coming out of hibernation signals the same.
No matter your platform of choice or your cost basis, on this beautiful fall day here, Iâd like to wish everyone in TR land a healthy and happy winter training season.
-Darth
This is a big question but we can easily approximate the answer.
In fact it is only dependent on 2 numbers: The % of users with legacy pricing and the discount % of the legacy pricing.
If we start with a yearly price of $189 for all users, we can vary both the % of legacy users and their % of discount and get different curves for the âEquivalent yearly price to make the same income if there was no legacy usersâ. Take a look at the curve below.
What we see is that even though we like to think a lot of money is going away to these legacy users, it actually doesnât represent that much of the total revenue since the impact is not high on the yearly prices.
In other words, if we assume that 10% of users have legacy pricing and they get a 50% discount on their dues. If we eliminated this discount, all of the members prices would decrease from $189/year to $174/year in order to keep the same income. This is a discount of $1.25 for all users.
In exchange, TR has to factor in whether or not the legacy users would quit and leave due to not having the retention incentive or the smaller price.
I donât think the monthly or yearly price is set by legacy users but by what TR has analyzed to be the sweet spot to retain users, gain new users and what the market can take given their features.
TLDR: In summary, the equivalent discount for all users if there was no legacy pricing is very small and only becomes significant (depending on the definition of significant) after 25% of the user base start having a 50% discount or so.
PS: this is a very crude approximation based solely on my own mathâŚ
You lost me after the 1st sentence 
I will only add something that someone much smarter said to me when my twins were young and we were constantly comparing them:
âComparison is the robbery of joyâ.
If you enjoy the product - try (emphasis on tryâŚ) not to stress that someone else is paying less than you. Just enjoy the product. If it doesnât meet your needs - move on, but someone paying less than you does not impact the productâs ability to meet your needs (not making the argument that if everyone was paying the current price - newer things couldnât be rolled out quicker because they could higher more people, etcâŚ)
Nate made a very savvy decision when he made the Legacy pricing promise.
Many reasons, but the biggest from my perspective is he created a class of loyal and âstickyâ customers. Outside of being kind and rational human beings, all of the Legacy customers represent reliable recurrent revenue. Not all customers are created equal, and customers who will reliably re-subscribe each year, and who pay for an entire year, are more valuable than fickle customers who pop in and out and complain a lot while doing so. Even worse are the customers who subscribe for a couple years, complain that TR didnât make them a GT contender, then disappear never to return.
From my perspective, it is todayâs legacy customers, and tomorrowâs future Legacy customers, who have big value to TR and whom TR should bend over backwards to keep. The monthly customers are actually Freeloaders with marginal value.
The Freeloaders are customers who want TR to keep improving while not committing to the platform. Freeloaders only want to pay for the months they will use. Freeloaders will complain loudly that they want the best price points. Even though they donât deserve them and have certainly not earned them. Freeloaders are happy to find a cheaper version of TR even when that cheaper version is a total rip-off of the originator. A double gut punch from Freeloaders on that one. Not surprising though as Freeloaders lack ethics and morals and only look out for themselves. For ex-USA people, Freeloaders also want TR to take it in the shorts when exchange rates arenât favorable. But of course when exchange rates are favorable, those same freeloaders happily pocket their savings and splurge on fancy coffee (according to the other thread) or bike parts.
Here is the simple math, because Freeloaders are simple:
Assuming the majority of TR customers live in the northern hemisphere, which is a pretty good assumption, then peak TR use will occur in Dec-Jan-Feb-March each year. That is four lousy months. Sure, there are a few demented individuals who train indoors all year long or use TR to program their entire lives. Both of those people know who they are, are probably on the trainer and not reading this thread and also: Mad Respect Yo!
Back to our Freeloaders⌠at the current, and amazingly great deal pricing of $20 a month, with no obligation for more than one month at a time, that means the Freeloaders can use TR very cheaply and with no commitment. Cheaper than most, if not all, Legacy customers. Furthermore, these Freeloading scum are massively sponging off of the good customers who are keeping the lights on for you. We are so happy each fall when the Freeloaders deign to return and we sure do hope that everything is warm and cozy and to your satisfaction.
If anything, TR has the Legacy pricing policy sorted out very well to create loyal, sticky customers and reliable revenue streams. By my math, they should significantly raise the monthly rate and force the freeloaders to finally pay their fair share.
Good Day,
-Darth
p.s. Dark Lords of the Sith donât use emoticons or /sarcasm tags.
I feel seen
Seasonal?
Do you mean people do wo on the road?
What is this!?
LOL way to lay on the guilt trip by calling monthly customers freeloaders.
#SurvivorOfMovingMultiMillionDollarCustomersFromPerpetualLicensesToSubscriptionInAnotherIndustry
Given my user name in the forum, I thought âFreeloading Scumâ was comedy gold. But I often amuse myself 
Dagnabit I missed that, kinda lost the plot after the first two movies. You know I love good punny comedic references. Sad panda.
This chart will look less drastic with a Y axis origin at $0. I prefer 0 axis for comparison purposes typically.
Changing the axis may shift the looks of the graph, but the data and related results is exactly the same regardless of how it looks. This version (that is somewhat like a âzoomed inâ view) makes it easier to quickly cross reference the lines to the data of the cost / % Legacy users,
Based on that easy of actual use aspect (getting real numbers not just views), I think that is better than how it would look at a 0 baseline.
I guess itâs just a preference. Yes, the actual math doesnât change, but if people donât look at the axis, you see a graph dropping to nearly the bottom. In reality, itâs closer to a more than half.
I think itâs generally agreed graphs should start at zero in most cases.
⌠they shouldnât be commenting on or making conclusions based on the data that drives it. 
More evidence for Loyalty Program 
.
Even Darthâs Freeloading Scum could eventually build up to five or ten years of loyalty given enough random months 
.
This related more to Monthly vs Annual pricing options initially, but if my math is right (no guarantee ), I am surprised to see the âbetter for the annualâ crossover to be above 9 months continuous use.
If the intent is to incentivize the annual choice, Iâd almost expect that crossover to be closer to the 6-8 month mark. That could lead right into the Legacy case I guess, in that people might be more likely to maintain a continuous subscription, but requires lump sum payment vs smaller monthly ones, so I get that doesnât work well for everyone.
But perhaps the annual pricing is set more from what they need on the minimum income side of things with the monthly set in another way, maybe market specific? I have no idea and most of this is well over my head as I am no expert in finance beyond handling a few of my own accounts
