Sounds good - go for the full boat testing if you know a guy!
I wanted two numbers: LT1 and MLSS. Confident I have that nailed. Over time will be curious to see if I can move one or both. Need to do some research and find a protocol for VLamax at some point.
Post up your results when you get them.
-Mark
Results of LT Test #2 using the 5 min step protocol
Prior test was December 2019 and I set out to do a bunch of training to see if I could move that 2 mMol (LT1) point to the right. Here are the results of yesterdays test along with a graph showing curves for December and April. I changed the steps slightly so not all points are matched but good enough.
I’m calling it a 15 watt right shift in LT1. Small changes in HR may or may not be real. Another 8-12 weeks and will think about some additional MLSS testing.
Enjoy…
Ride screen shot. SRm on the bike and performed on eMotion rollers with the resistance drum set to 1.5
Thanks for sharing your tests, There’s obviously been a significant improvement since December but looking at the graph both curves kick up at 180W and I am not clear as to why that point or slightly above it isn’t your LT1.
Thanks for looking at them!
I’m picking the point where lactate hits 2mMol as it is easy to see and fits the 2mMol or first 1mMol increase definition. Absolutely agree that lactate starts increasing after 180. Admit had hoped to get a 1.1 mMol reading at 190w while performing the test.
For training, longer Z2 rides, been keeping power in the 175-185 range for a couple hours. That seems to give a good response I can recover quickly from and keeps HR close to 70% maxHR. Harder days are around 200w for 60-75 minutes. Have kept FTP at 225 which was consistent with MLSS and TR RAMP tests from December time frame. Have done 45 min at 225 and felt solid.
Training objective for the next block (12 weeks) is to increase the VO2Max work slightly and push out time for the other workouts. I’d like to be holding 200-215 comfortably for 90 min and 225-230 for an hour at the end of the block.
It was cool to see the solid right shift on the curve. I can feel it in the legs but nice to see it reflected in the lab values.
After the next block will do this test again then probe MLSS and throw in a 20 min outdoor test too.
Mark
Very interesting results - I have been toying with getting a lactate meter as well. Given the cost compared to power meters, I’m surprised more people don’t have them.
I’m currently mainly interested in reliably determining LT1 using this, as I think there seems to be a fair amount of evidence that this is an important training intensity breakpoint. Right now I am looking at cardiac drift on long rides, but the general variability in HR makes that difficult to get numbers I’m confident in.
I am amazed that you can hold 80% of ftp at 70% of HR max! The closest I got is 3 hours at 77% of ftp (NP) at 75% max HR. And it was no easy ride. My TTE at ftp is 40 min, felt ok. Still a plenty of work for me at sub threshold intensities 
I’m sure my HR creeps up over long periods at LT1 (or close). I tend to do those longer rides outside and am not religious about wearing the HRM. Although I should be. Inside, always wear the hr strap (or arm band as I use a Schose or however that is spelled).
Yesterday did 90 min at 185 watts outside. It was solid and never felt in distress or that I was pushing hard. Despite that sensation, it is definitely not easy for me to do that consistently. Not hard like 40 km time trial hard, but not easy like a nice JRA or group ride would be.
Am sure those vague terms don’t help but just saying it’s definitely not easy.
In the last weeks the workouts that stand out are:
** Lactate Test - very very very happy with that result. Good mental and ego boost going into next block to see quantification of training working.
** 8 x 3 min at 120-130% MLSS. Done outside and just felt amazing. Legs ticking over, happy making power, super motivated during that workout. Nice day outside helped.
** 45 min at 220-225 watts. This was hard but very fulfilling. Ended up with an hour over 210w and hadn’t done anything at threshold for this duration in a long long time.
** 2 x 20 with first at 105% and second at 93% I hate 2 x 20. Had a coach who relied too heavily on it. So I do 2 x 20 when I want to test both legs and brain.
** Yesterday’s 90 min at 185 followed by another hour of JRA
Nothing special about any of this, but to me, its a sign that the training is working and I’m riding better and frankly enjoying the bike a lot more lately. After the broken ribs I was down and not feeling it. Part of that was frankly fear of getting hurt again and some of it was losing fitness and not feeling strong. To see it coming back, making progress, gaining faith in my physicality, mental aspects and planning my own training is a real positive.
Next goals are to push that 185w hold out to 2+ hours. Hit a solid 4 x 8 at 105% and 2 x 20 at 240+ for both. I’d also like to extend my 220+ power TTE out over an hour.
First time I’ve really focused on building a bigger foundation so this is a long term plan. I probably won’t even test or worry about “FTP” for quite a while. After years of fixating on it am looking at other numbers right now.
$0.02 on a rainy windy Monday
–Mark
If anyone wants to make their head explode:
<3 Science
I was looking through some of my earlier data. And seeing my test from last august, I’m wondering if I just didn’t really have much of a second turnpoint. Your data from December resembles it, as it’s pretty much a linear slope between 180 and 250 watts.
See here:
I’m curious if I had done another increment in there that it would have just kept on the same path.
Now that I’m getting a bit better at interpreting these profiles, I’m seeing that after the first block of SS, that there was clearly more of a pronounced curve between LT1 and the highest point.
See here:
And now my most recent test after doing some Seiler style 4x8’s (probably a bit too hard… )
I’m back on doing some SSBII. Hopefully with the addition of higher power VO2 style work that I’ll get a nice shift to the right on the curve. I appear to have lost fitness right now… but hoping that the large volume I was doing through Dec/Jan/Feb will translate in to a big boost in my thresholds once adding in higher power work.
As it is right now, bluebell only gets my HR up to about 140 tops, but everything is repeatable… right now my limiter is not O2 delivery, but metabolic. Seeing the data a second time now, it appears that SSB1 actually did its job, increasing fatigue resistance, even if it came at the expense of higher power capabilities. Power at 4 mmol is roughly the same, but feel like I have a lot of room to grow in the higher power VO2 max style intervals.
What I did was a bunch of Z2 riding Nov-Dec-Jan-Feb along with an occasional VO2 session and weekend mtn biking when possible. Which has a lot of hard, short efforts and some long sustained climbing efforts.
Then I took the VO2 Tuesday, SST Thursday concepts from SSB2 and added the long 90% or greater Saturday rides while steadily increasing Sunday duration of “just ride”.
At current age I would struggle to do SSB2 MV with 100% compliance. My plan has longer VO2 intervals then SSB2 and substitutes the Sunday SST for easier and longer (consistent with modification notes in theory)
The April LT test came after that roughly 6 week block. Roughly 6 weeks because prior to that I was doing some similar training work but then had travel. It was after the travel where I wrote out a 6 week program and stuck to it.
I have not done any real short power testing so don’t have current 1 min and 5 min power to compare to last year when I was doing short term build (which was good) and productive 500w for 60s and 290 for 5 min. If I were to guess, probably a fraction down on both right now. But those come up pretty fast if focused on.
For now… more of the same but pushing things up a bit. I like how this is working for me and really enjoying the training structure. Will see in a few months what things look like and decide on either more of this or if travel looks possible will try to polish up (peak) for autumn mountain bike trips.
Look forward to hearing how your next block works out. If SSB2 doesn’t pop the the VO2 length intervals higher then give 4 weeks of short power build a try. I found that program to work and it was fun too.
I think too much short power is what got me to that point in the first place. I don’t lift very often, maybe a few dumbell things every couple of weeks, and I was able to do most of the level 3 strength standards that coach Chad wrote up. I figure I just respond to anything like that much quicker than I do to the steady type of stuff. But the short efforts do give a really GOOD VO2 response as well, so I’m just saving those for the 2nd half of the build. I’ll do Ansel Adams -2 and San Joaquin +3. Problem was I did those in March last year, this year I’ll be doing it in June.
So, after ordering a lactate meter, I’ll be doing some testing at the weekend. Had some tests done as part of a Uni lab experiment last year and will be replicating their protocol (so I can compare results to last time).
Protocol would be ramp by 25W every 4 min beginning at 100W, and I would expect the test to last around 40-45 min (based on previous TR Ramp Test).
I’m used to taking blood samples from fingers (owing to working in labs) and plan on taking the sample at the 3min mark of each interval whilst still on the bike (and maintaining wattage). Had a dry run already and can do it whilst still riding (therefore avoiding hopping of the bike and lowering HR).
Key takeaway tips would be gratefully received!
I think I know what my FTP is and will only be testing during this portion of the test. Avoided putting figures in for FTP in this post, but feel as though I need to in order for people to properly appraise my protocol. Ramp gives it as 360W, but it’s not…hence the test. I plan on testing at 275W, 300W, 325W, 350W and 375W (if necessary). Been doing what I think is Sweetspot around the 320W mark, so guess it’s a little north of this. Granularity of data OK for training? Or should I use smaller ramps (e.g., 10 W)…?
Thoughts?
Hi Which meter did you order and where did you get it? Some of the things I’ve read say 5 minute steps are better to give the lactate more chance to stabilise.
I went for this one (though bought from ebay for a lot less).
5 min steps are certainly an option, do you have a protocol referece?
Thanks!
Couzen’s discusses 5min steps - I may alter my protocol.
See the protocols above.
Smaller steps and five min at each step will provide a better estimate of LT1
For FTP you want MLSS test protocol, not steps.
The fascat approach will give you an estimate to start with. To really nail it though, see the paper I linked to upthread and why ten min steps are not long enough
Have fun. It will take a few tests and playing with the data to figure it out.
Mark
Thanks - this one,
Dave
So after reading upthread, I may start with a 5min ramp to get a general ball park figure and identify AeT, then do a MLSS (fascat protocol above) to get MLSS…
Might find it useful for your first test to plan a simple protocol a primer. Get things set up, run the test protocol and sort out your routine. Do maybe 5-7 data points and see what happens. You’ll get some useful data to learn from, get your spreadsheet plots worked out, and figure out how to set things up to work best in your space.
For LT1, there are a few good test results shown upthread from myself and @Bioteknik The five minute steps and smaller wattage jumps between steps makes better data and cleaner plots. If you get an errant reading you can spot it and adjust. We are both using the same protocol (more or less) and I’ve found this to be pretty good. And useful as well for my recent training and showing the outcome (the december vs april chart).
For MLSS, it is a bit trickier. The FASCAT protocol with ten minute steps will get you in the ballpark. Assuming you already have a decent FTP estimate. The 30 min MLSS protocol is better. But… 30 min tests at several different power levels is a pain in the butt unless you are doing research. I performed that test once, data is all upthread. Had pegged my FTP at 225-230 using a series of data and recent on bike power test. 225 actually feels a touch low for training, but it was a pretty good, perhaps even slightly high, estimate of MLSS. I’ll repeat this soon and see if the last six months of training have had the desired results on FTP/MLSS
Suggestion:
run a short test to get used to your setup, your meter, arrange your “lab” the way you want it
do a good 5 min step test, plot that out, stare at the data
once things are set up, take your best MLSS estimate and give the FASCAT protocol a shot
from the MLSS “step” test then go back and do the 30 min test to nail it. If that data will be useful to you.
Something like that should get you a good data set.
-Mark
Great - really appreciate you taking the time to write a detailed answer!!
Will report back on how it goes,
Dave
