Lactate Testing - Data and Results

Nice work there!

FWIW, when I do the sticks I like to rotate fingers and locations. Since I’m right handed I self stick the left hand. I’ll usually do one stick toward the finger tip then another between second and third knuckle. I go for the side of the finger as it bleeds better (not going through the harder “pad” skin). If I stick the same finger 3-4 times it’s usually tender for a couple days even with small gauge lances. When I test friends, always make sure to ask if they are on any coagulation inhibitors. I wont test anyone who is taking those medications as even non-treated subjects bleed pretty good once heart rate is elevated and they are working hard.

In terms of the MLSS testing on my friends - None were eager to get back into the lab this fall. Apparently they were all traumatized from the prior sessions. No fear, they will forget over the fall and be willing to try again this winter when that eagerness for the next season returns - LOL

I’m almost ready for my 30 min MLSS run. Needed to prepare better and get mentally prepared for longer duration intervals on the trainer.

-Mark

In a few of my previous trial runs, I got some funny results when I used a different location. Probably just superstition, but my finger is already fine, I just use the lowest setting on the lancing device that works. Early on, I did get a few errors though since I think the sample was a bit low in volume. So I stick with the side of my finger, can get it to then stop bleeding in about 5 seconds of pressure.

Good luck with the 30 minute test! This full profile took me about 80 minutes due to the stopping and testing/prepping.

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Finally sucked it up and did the 30 min MLSS test.

Most recent TR Ramp test came in at 228 and my best 20 min effort outside this past summer was 240 watts. Historic best 60 min efforts (40km TTs) come in around 235 watts. All pointing to a when well trained MLSS of 235 +/-

For this test I didn’t think 235 was realistic. I’ve not been focused on endurance or long efforts this season and decided to see what this test format would produce if I held a decent 225-230w effort. Shooting for 230 but trying not to push things into the 235 zone.

Data and some charts below. Some take homes:

  1. Longer threshold work kinda hurts. Need to get back to longer intervals and that is a big part of the plan for 2020.

  2. Was very happy with my baseline lactate measures in the < 2.0 mMol range and also how during cool down the lactate measure dropped back under 2.0 nicely. Heart Rate was in the normal range (165-168) for threshold efforts (recent max 175).

  3. In terms of interpreting the MLSS, data looks about as expected with exception of that 30 min data point.

Probably should have taken another sample at 30 min but was happy enough with the test to call it good.

For training purpose, will put my TR FTP at 225 and carry on for the next 12 weeks. During which I’ll be doing “foundation” work consisting of 2 cycles of Johnny Candito’s powerlifting program coupled with one VO2max workout each week and as much Z2 and SST as I can take. That is December through February. The 12 weeks after will be Base running SSB mid-volume I then II. Will see what comes next but expect some racing May through August and probably general power build. I’m not focused on race results in 2020 and am on a slow buildup for the 2022 season.

Here is some data from today’s test:

Finally, this was a 13 lancet day. Fingers feel fine.

Hope somebody enjoys these data sets.

-Mark

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Lactate Threshold testing to go along with the TR Ramp test FTP estimate and MLSS run above. Pictures of the ride, the data and graph. Enjoy!!

LT Dec 7 Data

The protocol was a 10 min warm up then 5 minute steps at the indicated wattage targets. Did pretty well holding those given I use eMotion rollers instead of a smart trainer. Note that the 250w stage was only 4 min. I started to flag a bit and didn’t tough it out. Hopped back on to try and get the 270w level and only lasted a couple minutes.

Based on this and the MLSS and past results, feel good about putting VT1 at 165-170 watts and FTP at 225w for the next block of training. Goals remain to build the aerobic engine and overall strength through winter.

Happy holidays y’all !!

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VT1 is where the lactate level starts climbing from the baseline ‘low’ value, right? As I continue to hear more about the value of training at/below VT1, I think getting a good measure of this is another valuable output from lactate testing.

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Yes. You can see similar data in BioT’s plot. When you go from that low baseline and begin accumulation is pretty obvious from a decent test.

I’ve looked at these Lactate graphs before and quite often it seem quite difficult to call where LT1 & MLSS are. How confident are you that you’ve got the correct points on the graph as the MLSS point seems very nuanced. Very interesting thread by the way.

Doing a good test (hope I have here) and then figuring out how to use the data is part of what I’m learning. First thing is to read and listen about good tests, vs a lot of what people are sold. Many of those tests are done to be fast and inexpensive to conduct. Maximize profit for the tester as opposed to providing the best data for a rider. Having my own meter lets me do additional time points and longer test protocols. Its a luxury but so is having time to ride a bike for fun so what the heck.

I was not confident in MLSS until I did the 30 min run and read the paper on how long it takes to achieve steady state. The ten minute runs were not giving data I felt totally comfortable with. Even the 30 min work, that last point went up and I was surprised as things looked stable 15, 20 and 25 min points. I should do a 30 min test at say 215w and another at 235w. But… the numbers I have are good enough for training today and fingers can only take so many pokes :-]

Also not using the data in isolation. Given how the 30 min MLSS test came out, recent ramp test results, a good 20 min effort end of summer, plus a lot of historic FTP and 40km TT data, I’m very comfortable with using 225w as current FTP for training purposes this winter (stressing training purposes). I am very curious how the LT curve and MLSS will respond to different training and its nice to have these baseline results

Lactate Threshold curve test, I feel good about the VT1 result and using that in training. It matches up well with what my power and HR data was telling me about where to train for that solid endurance work. Perhaps ironically – just do Baxter a lot and folks following TR will be happy.

FWIW - I couldn’t figure out my MLSS from the LT curve.

My interest in lactate testing has been to (1) better understand the lactate results and tools (2) see if I could use it to guide my training and help some buddies with same and (3) a growing interest in non-sweetspot training methods. I thought it could be fun to have some additional “lab” measurements to see how different programs affect things.

In the “I wish” bucket, a couple years ago I followed SSBMV I+II and sustained power build almost to the letter. Too bad I didnt have the meter back then as would have been interesting to see what the before and after looked like. I definitely reached a high level of fitness with that 20 week block of work. Next time!!

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That Triathlon Show has an episode with good info on interpreting lactate curves, including pictures:

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Velonews just had a good podcast on lab testing too.

Added link for Velonews:

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Yes, but am on WKO 3.0 because I’ve been too cheap to upgrade !! Should really get the latest version.

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I know… to me @DarthShivious has a linear lactate response all the way up to 270 watts, which is supposed to indicate that he never found the second inflection point. Alan couzens has supposed that if you trend too far towards anaerobic, you lose the second threshold and MLSS is the highest lactate concentration you can sustain.

Modeled FTP is only valid if you do some sort of maximal effort though. I’ve been curious to see what the WKO power duration curve says about my training, but I"m not sure it is going to say much more than intervals.icu. The model only works if you really put in some hard work, but everything I’ve been listening to the last few years is saying to save those efforts for race day.

Agree, never saw the second inflection point.

Detail of the test:

The 250w step is likely OK as I pedaled for 4 min (1 min shy of completing the 5 min stage).

The 270w point is not valid for the test as I only made it 2 min in. There was also a time gap between getting off to take the 250w sample and hopping back on. Visible in the TR ride plot.

During the test, I was going to quit after the 250 point as I was fried. But then jumped back on… and died :-]

Mentally, I’d achieved the day’s goal of wanting to nail down the first turn point. Was already comfortable with the MLSS number and those are the two things I wanted for the next several months training and also for baseline numbers of where I am at.

Interpreting lactate data is like trying to see The Grim in the bottom of your teacup in Professor Trelawney’s class.

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Thanks for the very detailed response.

Fully agree with that. All the places near where I live all do 3 min ramps and as it appears to be built into the software there doesn’t appear to be a way for them to change it. Everything I’ve read points to longer ramps being essential for good data.

I’m seriously thinking of getting a lactate meter but I’d have to do the test on my own as my wife has a thing about blood and would not be able to help me. My riding buddies think I’m crazy enough as it is without asking one of them to help draw my blood whilst on a bike.

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As @DarthShivious mentioned, with more points it gets a lot easier to interpret, and once you know what pattern to see, you can see it easier in other datasets. Think of it as seeing that nice mogul line, when you’re first skiing, the bumps look totally random but after a while you’re interpreting the matrix.

I used a lot more datapoints than was totally necessary, and now that I know ~ where my LT1 is in relation to my FTP, I can cut out a few of them during the warm up portion. But I want to get in a few extra points closer to LT2 to see if I can do a better job of seeing how that part of the curve is changing.

FWIW, in my case, my 2x8 test results produce roughly the same Power:HR ratio as the lactate curve. The ramp test is a bit too dependent on being able to produce high amounts of power, which are not always indicative of your aerobic capacity. Think of why we get such a quick response to VO2 work, most of it isn’t the absolute VO2 needle moving, it’s the power we can produce at VO2 that jumps up quickly with training. But the lactate curve can also be used to model your power duration curve, as the steeper the lactate curve, the quicker your power will drop for longer durations (roughly).

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I then duplicated your protocol because: (1) solid design and (2) for this discussion thought it would be fun to have two sets of data to look at and (3) I wanted to know my first inflection point for winter block.

Next test, when looking for effect of training on VT1, will streamline the test to home in on the right spot.

-Mark

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Just wanted to say that I find all of this interesting, thanks for sharing.

Two randomly unrelated questions:
Isn’t there some sort of model you could apply to find the inflection points? Just looking at the curve seems a bit odd (though, usually it turns out your eyes work pretty well in that regard…).

The other question, as you have access to the lactate date, is there actually a relationship between the lactate measurments and ‘muscle burn’?

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Burn: Can’t say much on this. Training hard kinda hurts if you do it right. But not a painful thing, just a good workout thing. Anything above say 85% for decent duration you are going to get the feeling that you are working hard. But no overt sensation other than normal that I can associate with different lactate measures.

Fitting the curve: Any dataset can be fitted with enough terms (LOL). I give you a link to a paper on lactate curves - which may or may not be correct and / or useful!!!

** Having played around with different tests and ideas now, am very happy about getting the right range for my aerobic training out of the multi-point LT test. Data is decent for MLSS but honestly had that pretty well defined with power data and RPE. The VT1 number to hopefully maximize aerobic training will be good and the MLSS will keep me honest for sweet spot/threshold and those longer 105-110% efforts when the time comes.

Am trying to better understand VLAmax and how this may or may not matter for my riding.

For lactates above MLSS, not really interests in that data or utility right now.

In terms of utility… Mostly going at this now to guide aerobic engine development which I hope will push up my MLSS (FTP) but practically, I’d like to run a 55 min 40km road TT and I noticed this season that while my 5 min and under power responded really well to a short power build block, my perception of riding at threshold and TTE on the mountain bike seemed off. On dirt, I’d like to be better on those 90-120 min rides with buddies. No race goals but you know, those damn group rides are good motivation too.

Am very glad you are enjoying the thread!

–Mark

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