They appeared to get fitter. Not sure what else it shows.
It’s been 2 years since I last did a lactate test, did a couple of Inscyd tests since then but I’ve noticed that my Z2 power has been feeling relatively easy, riding at 210W (3.2W/kg) at a heart rate that’s within a handful of BPM of my upper recovery limit. So a friend offered to measure some lactate while I rode a 8’ 20W ramp test. Every sample was measured between the 7th and 8th minute of each step.
| Power Wahoo | Power Assioma | Lactate |
|---|---|---|
| 160 | 157 | 1,5 |
| 180 | 179 | 1 |
| 200 | 198 | 0,7 |
| 220 | 218 | 1,1 |
| 240 | 237 | 1,7 |
| 260 | 254 | 3,4 |
So I guess Z1 goes up to 200W since I keep breaking down lactate even at 200W and that Z2 goes up to ±240W? My trainer somehow seems to think my Z2 limit is 200W but that seems impossible since I keep breaking down lactate and the gradient only rises more from 240W onwards. Perhaps the curve looks a bit off because we didn’t go up to LT2.
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Next time do a longer warm up or start at lower power, but I’d say z1 all the way up to 220 if you’re defining z1 as anything still at baseline. Z2 220- a little over 240 but considering the big jump at 260 watts try to stick around 240. That is of course if you are defining z2 as inflection to about +1 mmol. Some people suggest fatmax for you would be around 200 since you hit that dip in lactate just before it starts to rise, but that is an approximation.
Thanks for the input!
Based on which formula or theory do you then put FatMax at 200W? Just out of curiousity.
During my last Inscyd test it was in the 190-200W range I believe but my Z2 was also lower.
I am citing my memory of an ism interview. Without a met cart, just an estimate but in general it is a good estimate.
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Very cool. If I had that lactate curve and I wanted to go out and do some Z2 work I’d pedal along at 200W to 220W. Probably closer to 200W most of the time because that’s more pleasant and I don’t think I’d get materially more adaptation at 220W. 
It’s easy to pick LT1 from the lactate curve. 5 different experts are likely to pick 5 different LT2. Ha! So maybe it’s better to just not take the data. It’s much easier to pick a LT2-like workrate just from reviewing performance data, IMO.
Thanks for sharing your data.
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Hi. Just completed a block of training with lactate and CP testing before and after. Been following this tread for a while now and thought I share my own recent findings. For reference, M23, ~72kg, work=computerstuff=low stress and training for long distance events (6h+). First event in mid-June, so plenty of time to train and test.
I’ll start with the test results/numbers:
| Watt | HR | Lactate | Watt | HR | Lactate | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 04.03.23 | 28.03.23 | ||||||
| 155 | 101 | 0.8 | - | - | - | ||
| 182 | 112 | 0.8 | 179 | 105 | 0.8 | ||
| 205 | 120 | 0.9 | 206 | 115 | 0.8 | ||
| 232 | 131 | 0.9 | 231 | 124 | 0.9 | ||
| 257 | 142 | 1.0 | 256 | 134 | 0.9 | ||
| 286 | 155 | 1.3 | 284 | 147 | 1.2 | ||
| 304 | 163 | 1.6 | 308 | 157 | 1.6 | ||
| 330 | 173 | 2.6 | 333 | 167 | 3.1 | ||
| 353 | 182 | 6.6 | 361 | 177 | 6.8 |
And the same data displayed in two graphs (one zoomed in to Area of Interest):
Some notes regarding the test protocol:
- Test was performed 3-4 hours after last meal (usually big breakfast) and no carbs during test.
- Warmup was ~20m of low z2 before the first ramp.
- I use High North’s protocol for the testing. Meaning first ramp (155w/179w) is 15m long, but the rest are 8 min. Reason being tried 4-6 min and think it is too short. Also tried 10m but felt like 8 min was just as good since rest between ramps are minimal (just long enough to take lactate sample with minimal movement).
- The steps in these tests were set to 25w increments using zwift with Kickr V5. After the test i check the fit file and take the watts from Assioma power meter since it is the power meter I use outdoors.
CP numbers
I find I like doing these CP testing regularly to assess my fitness. The regular FTP tests (20m / ramp) usually overshoot my threshold by a mile. The test is again the High Norths protocol and I do the 3min, 5min and 12 min test. 30 min noodling/recovering between efforts.
| Duration [s] | Watt | Duration [s] | Watt | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 02.03.23 | 01.04.23 | ||||
| 181 | 515 | 183 | 526 | ||
| 323 | 459 | 304 | 460 | ||
| 724 | 402 | 735 | 410 |
These can then be plugged in a calculator, and you get an estimate on Critical Power and W’. What is interesting from these tests is that the W’ is estimated to 27.0 kJ and 28.3 kJ. I believe this is somewhat high and usually the reason why my previous ramp tests or 20min ftp tests have overestimated my FTP (avoid using that term now).
The training
Now, I believe these results are less valuable unless I share what I have been doing between the tests. The training was really simple and followed the same structure for three weeks.
- Mon: Active Recovery (45-60m Z1)
- Tue: AM Intervals, Sub-threshold, PM Strength
- Wed: 3h ~65%
- Thu: AM Intervals, Sub-threshold, PM Strength
- Fri: Active Recovery (45-60m Z1)
- Sat: Long ride 5.h-6.5h ~65%
- Sun: Long ride 3-4h ~65%
Note: Total ride time increased from 18h to 19h. Long ride went from 5.5h to 6.5h. Intervals started off as 5x15m@~92-94%/5m rec. Increased Time in zone from 75m to 90m as well as fewer intervals (last session was 2x45m).
(Key) observations:
- Doing z2 and more important sub-threshold work seems to have minimal effect on Threshold power, nothing new.
- The W’ increased from the first test to the second. Which I think makes sense, since a higher threshold/CP will usually lower it.
- The lactate curve has shifted somewhat to the right which was the goal of the block
- What is clearer is that heartrate for the same power has come down a lot.
Future plans / things I want to experiment with:
- Doing more AeT work. Instead of endless rides at 220w, why not ride more at or around AeT. Based on the latest lactate curve I believe ~270-280w should be fine (if one uses 0.3-0.5 above baseline for Lt1 that is).
- Change intensity to just above threshold (~103-105%) to try and increase it.
- Will do some Vo2 work, but only short before the main events.
- Might try to switch one or both the Active Recovery days for complete rest days. Not sure if it would be beneficial or not (Currently doing full rest days during my test weeks).
- Recently been thinking about extend all sessions to ~4h with full rec. Monday and Friday. Then the superlong Saturday ride is taken out and recovery might be more even. (Taking inspiration from the pro’s training.)
Well, this turned out to be a bit longer than expected, but I hope someone finds it interesting. If you have input/thoughts on future work, feel free to comment. I am always up to discuss the results or, if you have, new ideas. Cheers
11 Likes
I’m with @Xzenith on this. 20h/wk since 2016, similar watts, and this is the one conclusion I can draw, riding a lot of Z2 (or similar) has no real impact on threshold or above. There was an initial bump when I started out with my high volume endeavour - especially on supra-threshold - but this was a one time thing.
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What training has worked for you for second threshold when doing those hours?
Riding right at threshold, or just below to keep recovery and sustainability in focus?
Been experimenting a bit with riding a bit above LT2 and that was a mistake. Took 4 weeks and then I had problems with recovery.
Started doing Sweet Spot instead felt way more manageable (8x8min for example)
I don’t test for LT2, would not know which of the 1000 definitions to use. And it’s cumbersome with self-testing.
Clearly see the best 30-60min efforts after springs with plenty of racing (3-5h events in prep phase). So it would be racing for me, have a hard time to go deep in training.
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Yes, I did. But I believe you reach this ceiling after only a few years of riding a lot. Ceiling in terms of absolute watts. After that you can only improve significantly at repeatability, no matter how much easy riding you do. And in the end that ceiling is all about genetics anyway.
2 Likes
«How is your training history»
I have been cycling all my life but started structured training in 2020 and got my first power meter later that summer. I have not done any Vo2Max testing in lab yet. Only number I can give you is estimate from Garmin which currently is around 77. Regarding weight I can easily lose ~4-5kg, but right now I am prioritizing getting enough/good food in. Below are my hours since 2020.
Year | Hours bike | Hours total (running etc.)
2020 | 333 | 570
2021 | 575 | 726
2022 | 613 | 728
2023 | 211 | 245
Regarding the “zone 2 and sub-threshold = minimal Threshold power adaption”. What I think after looking at the data (lactate) is that z2 work will push the curve to the right, but mostly the part before it shifts upwards, i.e., lower lactate levels. And that sub-threshold work might have some impact on power at MLSS, but I believe what is does more is steepen the curve. So effectively you lower Lactate thus making it easier to hold SS power longer just below threshold and less about increasing it (Just my observation).
On AeT work. What I had in mind was something along the lines of 3x45m at AeT and rest at 200w-220w, not 3-4 hours continuous. Recovery would of course be watched carefully. Note that during my last block, the legs feel fresh after every session.
On the Threshold Sessions. I have done work at or just above Threshold before with good response/results. Now I don’t believe 2 sessions per week of 45-60m TIZ of TH is too much intensity. If one can’t do that, I would look at the other sessions during the week and see if they might be too hard.
You mention 5.5+ threshold. Are you referring to the progress levels of trainer road? I don’t use them so I have no idea what that would mean for me. Can you explain further what you mean by “Looks like you have a long road ahead” ?
At the end of the day, I am self-coached. A big part of this is self-testing, experimenting and seeing what I am able to do on my own. That what makes me happy.
3 Likes
In regard to lactate response, which is what I want to discuss, hence posting in thus thread.
-Based on my results from the last block it seems likely that big block of low z2 has increased LT1 = moved the curve to the right.
-Doing sub-threshold work does not seem to have had a significant impact on LT2. It might have made it easier to pedal at just below (doing last interval session 2x45m was not to hard), but not increased it.
This was stated in the original post so it’s nothing new. The left figure below tries to illustrate this.
The right figure tries to illustrate what I THINK might happen to the curve, how it will respond, if I continue z2 but, mainly change the HIT to just above threshold. I believe, based on earlier experience, stuff I have read on forums etc. that:
-Z2 will continue to improve curve at or around LT1
-Threshold+ Intensities will help move the LT2 to the right
Note that the figures are just meant to be a visual, and obv. not to scale or anything.
I don’t test for LT2/MLSS, but know it probably sits somewhere around 3.0-4.0 mmol/l. Main reason for increasing it is that LT1 usually will follow as well. I find LT1 much more interesting and important. I believe LT1 is one of, if not the most important metric in performance (in cycling excluding 1K track etc.).
I’ve got roughly four months of training before the A race, therefore current plan is to
do some of this threshold work for a block. Do another assessment and see how things how changed. Then do two more sub threshold blocks to lower lactate at just under threshold and move LT1 closer to, the then higher, LT2. Then a specialty block last with some Vo2 work and taper.
I’ll end this post with some more test results from Q3 '22. Training between the first two tests was mainly same structure as mentioned above, with HIT training consisting of 3x20m@Threshold. Training between the second and third test was 6x5min Hard start V02 Intervals (don’t ask me why VO2 work). The hard start was 1 min 130% followed by 4 min 115% if anyone is interested.
Have a great Easter!
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| Step | Int Time | Power | Hartrate | Lactate |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | 8 | 167 | 120 | 1,1 |
| 2 | 8 | 184 | 125 | 0,9 |
| 3 | 8 | 200 | 129 | 1,3 |
| 4 | 8 | 216 | 133 | 1,5 |
| 5 | 8 | 232 | 138 | 1,1 |
| 6 | 8 | 248 | 145 | 1,3 |
| 7 | 8 | 264 | 149 | 1,6 |
| 8 | 8 | 280 | 155 | 1,8 |
| 9 | 8 | 296 | 161 | 4 |
| 10 | 8 | 312 | 165 | 6,4 |
| 11 | 8 | 328 | 169 | 12,2 |
Did my first home lactate testing (Lactate Pro 2).
Did a 8 minute step test with 5% steps. Repeated step 5 to validate the numbers and got 1.0 on the second strip ( so after 16 minutes at 232).
Think my LT1 is around 250ish and LT2 just north of 300. Max hr is 187, but pulled the plug after the 12,2 value. Didn’t wanted to go all out for this test ( there is no point right?).
Any input from you guys?
5 Likes
Only: (a) nice test and (b) thanks for adding your results to the thread.
1 Like
I agree with your LT1/2 estimates.
Summary of my lactate test
June 17, 2023, 82F, no/low humidity, no wind
Did a 1.8 mile loop outside on gravel bike which took 6:40 to 5 minutes of pedaling.
Stopped each lap for sampling took 1 minute, lap times include the lap and time to test.
Stopping has some sort of effect on results but I wanted the result for outdoors, I don’t do the same power indoors on different equipment.
Used the lactate plus: Lactate Plus Meter Blood : Lactate Meter for Sports Training and Conditioning
Estimating
LT1 260w, I was surprised how high this is vs LT2 and it is 0.79 IF of the 330w FTP I’ve been using. Maybe stopping inflates the result. Heartrate was good bit lower at 240w than 260. I was surprised by this because I do my endurance at 70% FTP = 231w.
LT2 310 or 320W
I have felt 330 FTP is probably too high but I’m able to do the high volume plans at that, I use FTP as a setting for workout intensity rather than what I can do for 60 minutes.
5 minutes after the end of the test where lactate was 5.9 I took an additional reading which gave lactate 4.1.
Training
I’ve been doing high volume TR plans with 1 hour at 70% FTP=231w before the workout and 60-65% FTP after the workout for whatever duration to make 3 hour rides for the 4 hard days per week. Then 1 day at 1 hour endurance and 2 days strength training. The extra endurance around the interval session adds a lot of TSS, maybe explains the high LT1 result.
| End Time | Lap Time | Power | Heartrate | Lactate |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 90.95 | - | 210 | 142 | 1.4 |
| 98.62 | 7.67 | 220 | 146 | 1.1 |
| 106.22 | 7.60 | 230 | 150 | 1.3 |
| 114.05 | 7.83 | 240 | 158 | 1.4 |
| 121.35 | 7.30 | 250 | 163 | 1.4 |
| 128.60 | 7.25 | 261 | 164 | 1.1 |
| 135.77 | 7.17 | 270 | 167 | 1.6 |
| 142.93 | 7.17 | 280 | 170 | 1.6 |
| 149.80 | 6.87 | 290 | 170 | 1.7 |
| 156.77 | 6.97 | 300 | 170 | 2.6 |
| 163.42 | 6.65 | 310 | 175 | 2.7 |
| 170.48 | 7.07 | 320 | 178 | 3.6 |
| 177.03 | 6.55 | 330 | 181 | 4.5 |
| 183.00 | 5.97 | 340 | 184 | 5.9 |
Grouping of data #1
Grouping of data #2
Heartrate
5 Likes
Just adding some data to the thread. I did a ramp test (start at 1.0 w/kg and 3watts/min increment) yesterday just because. The ramp test was too shallow for me to reach VO2 max, but I can estimate VO2max and pVO2max based on the regressions. No surprises…still slow 
Adjusted R Square:
HR:PWR - 0.99
HR:VO2 - 0.97
PWR:VO2 - 0.95
MaxHR - 172 bpm
VO2Max - 49 ml/min/kg
pVO2Max - 310 watts
Lower threshold is around 175 watts (where I could notice my breathing change) and upper threshold is somewhere between 215-230 watts, or slightly lower.
| Weight | 83 | kg | SMO2 | Breath | ||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Time | Bla | Power | W/kg | HR | Cadence | Quad | Calf | Delt | VO2 | VO2/kg | VE | BF | VT | RER |
| Sec | mmol/l | watts | w/kg | bpm | RPM | % | % | % | ml/min | ml/min/kg | l/min | bpm | l | % |
| 1710 | 0.8 | 85 | 1.0 | 102 | 80 | 41 | 44 | 88 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
| 2115 | 1 | 98 | 1.2 | 108 | 80 | 35 | 32 | 91 | 2120 | 25.5 | 46.3 | 20.0 | 2.3 | 0.78 |
| 2415 | 1.2 | 114 | 1.4 | 115 | 79 | 35 | 28 | 90 | 2160 | 26.0 | 51.1 | 23.0 | 2.2 | 0.84 |
| 2715 | 0.9 | 127 | 1.5 | 117 | 80 | 34 | 34 | 90 | 2350 | 28.3 | 55.5 | 21.0 | 2.7 | 0.84 |
| 3015 | 1.3 | 145 | 1.7 | 122 | 81 | 30 | 28 | 90 | 2610 | 31.4 | 66.0 | 30.0 | 2.2 | 0.86 |
| 3315 | 1.6 | 170 | 2.0 | 130 | 79 | 26 | 30 | 89 | 2580 | 31.1 | 67.8 | 30.0 | 2.3 | 0.88 |
| 3615 | 2 | 190 | 2.3 | 139 | 78 | 24 | 25 | 87 | 2970 | 35.8 | 80.9 | 31.0 | 2.6 | 0.9 |
| 3915 | 3.1 | 214 | 2.6 | 144 | 81 | 12 | 21 | 85 | 3110 | 37.5 | 84.8 | 29.0 | 3.0 | 0.91 |
| 4215 | 4.5 | 232 | 2.8 | 150 | 81 | 11 | 15 | 88 | 3300 | 39.8 | 108.4 | 40.0 | 2.8 | 1.01 |
| 4605 | 8.4 | 259 | 3.1 | 154 | 83 | 7 | 7 | 87 | 3670 | 44.2 | 142.6 | 47.0 | 3.0 | 1.03 |
Plot
Dfa-a1
Lactate analysis (LT: Lactate Thresholds in cycleRtools: Tools for Cycling Data Analysis)
6 Likes
Superb contribution - thank you.
Are you utilizing the dataset to inform your training program or more along the lines of monitoring progress?