I do not think that anything above active recovery is not taxing mentally if you want to elicit proper adaptations. Even Z2 is really taxing mentally when over 2h (for me). Long threshold intervals are great to train mental side of cycling, not to mention long VO2 max
As a side note, I’d also like to add that nearly 100% of my 2020 training has been sub-FTP; I’ve done exactly 12 VO2max sessions. I’ve tripled my Sweet Spot TTE, raised my FTP 43% year-to-date, and 5% higher than when I was doing strict TR plans. And still a few more months to go.
I say this as a a supplement to KM’s statement about endurance. For most recreational and beginner cyclists, I think TR has far too much supra-threshold work and way not enough pure endurance work.
That said, I also think that TR is still a valuable product for most of us.
Good work, well done!
After last week’s test when I don’t think I understood purpose of the ‘ramp’ and quit when I couldn’t manage the ramp instead of carrying on at what felt like ftp type power…leading to 28mins at 306w and myself questioning if 28mins really long enough to estimate ftp, even though I FELT I could have done more at that level if didn’t ramp…today I had another go. Set ftp at 306W and followed baseline test, determined to make it to 40mins or die trying, with first 10mins bit under 306 per test and then ignore ramp and do what I could by feel for next 30 mins…end result was 40 mins at average of 309W (side note- last TR ramp test said 311W so pretty darn good estimate BUT this also felt an amazing workout PLUS gives me so much confidence on what I CAN do rather than what I should/may be able to do)
Really pleased but so shattered at end!
I hear ya. The ramp and TTE usually give me very similar results, but arriving from different sources. Maybe that makes me an average MOTR cyclist who’s not exceptional either way.
I think a good combo would be a TTE test and a 5min power test.
I see about a 20 watt difference between my tr ramp test and the km test…its a super hard pill to swallow but I sadly think the tr ramp test over inflates my ftp. I guess I’m an anaerobic athlete
We’re all anaerobic to some degree, the question is how much
It is indeed hard to swallow, but on the plus side welcome to not absolutely hating threshold work now! That was how I cheered myself up about it anyway.
I dropped my “threshold” a similar amount. Man, you get so much faster when you train the proper zones and recovery is 100x easier.
I send my referral links to people in here South Korea, but almost all of them said training is way to hard. I told them to reduce their FTP value but many of them just turned to xert as xert training goes more “Challenging, but Doable” then TR plans. I also experienced same last year as well(just I didn’t turn to other platform but take rest and did lots of learning. Now I just descrease my FTP value with my own feeling. So easy option).
Is ramp test really fit to most of people according to data recorded on TR as Ramp Test FAQs states? One can descrease his FTP by his own and it’s always available option, but if TR can do something more about preventing this over-estimation problem it would be incredible feature.
Until see such feature available, I would count on Kolie Moore’s protocol. Much more logical and fit to me.
Meant to add - new season and career power PBs from 22 to 53 mins (no bad as only did a hard 40 min interval!). Based on Season match I’m between 30-50W improvement from last year. TR sure does work (BUT I prefer this test - hard but gives me confidence of what I can do!)
I do think for a lot of people the ramp test isn’t too bad a fit - you also need to remember that TR don’t do many Long (more than 20 mins) threshold type efforts so even if FTP is slightly too high these can still be done.
I personally think the longer Kolie Moore test is better BUT you do need a decent estimation of what your FTP is to start with. For new/inexperienced riders this will be v hard. My ramp test result is v close to my result for this test. The problem with these longer tests is knowing where to pitch yourself from the start - that takes experience.
The TR team have got it hard when it comes to testing as they’re trying to use a protocol that works from the beginner to a highly trained rider. A rider with experience of training and testing will be able to perform well in longer tests as they “should” understand how to pace the effort where as a beginner will blow up if you ask them to test for 40 minutes.
I think from a testing point of view, for a beginner the ramp test works well, but I do believe it over estimates FTP for a lot of riders. For those that don’t believe this, just read the hundreds of posts where people can’t hold sweet spot efforts. Going forward, I’m not sure there’s an easy fix.
FWIW, I perform longer tests for the riders I coach.
Agree with this.
My feeling is that the ramp test works very well for beginners as they haven’t “learnt” to suffer yet. By that, I mean they may quit a little earlier than more experienced riders. This would then give an FTP which is probably more in line with “actual” FTP.
For more experienced riders, I feel longer tests give more accurate results.
quite possibly to promote more frequent testing, in advance of a new feature like adaptive training plans. But a few simple fact remain, a) FTP works well for setting training levels at threshold and below, and b) FTP estimate for an individual falls into a range and is not 75% MAP for everyone.
Do you mind me asking what test you usually prescribe? I’ve only ever done the 2x8min test and the ramp test. I’m doing the Kolie Moore test today though. But I’m interested in what other coaches decide to use for their athletes.
No problem, it can be anywhere from 40 - 60 minutes but it depends on the athlete.
Ahh okay, so not just a 20 min test but something really similar to these Kolie Moore Tests. Interesting. They seem to be more popular than I would have guessed.
I’ve found it to be a more reliable way of determining FTP. Every rider is different though, some can test at shorter durations and the power matches the longer efforts, but for some riders it can be way off and that’s when people start to struggle at efforts under FTP.
I’ve been suspecting that the ramp test overestimates my FTP by quite a bit. I returned from a week’s vacation on Sunday. Used Truuli on Monday to prep my body for the ramp test on Tuesday, and the Kolie Moore Baseline on Wednesday.
Ramp test gave me a 330w ”FTP” but I lasted only 25mins during the baseline.
The bad news is that my FTP is clearly not 330w. The good news is that I’ve confirmed that the ramp test overestimates my FTP.
I’ll re-attempt the baseline assessment at some point in my calendar, but will aim for a much lower target FTP. Probably around 310w.