Am I the only one that actually knows my FTP just by intuition? I mean you should be able to feel in your legs what’s sustainable aerobically for a longish duration.
Honesty is important!
I do think PL < 3 or 4 is misleading, I understand there will be some people that refuse to adjust their inflated FTP’s - hence TR providing these workouts, also it’s useful for days with less time, or days that you are carrying fatigue. But if you can’t do PL 3+ Threshold, its probably time to dial it down 5 watts, which honestly doesn’t matter, its just a number! And it feels way better nailing workouts than hanging on for dear life.
Ramp test protocol is great for beginners and casual TR users as their FTP will likely change very quick anyway, so an accurate test isn’t as important!
Or maybe I’m wrong - do you really need a test to know your FTP (if you’re not a complete beginner)?
I think the biggest problem is that too many people choose mid and high volume plans. I agree those can cook a lot of people.
But if you choose low volume, use AT and just supplement with z2 rides I think it works for most people. A key point is though if you are supplementing with group rides, they are probably adding extra intensity. Swap the group ride for one of the intense workouts.
On MV specifically, I think the added Sunday SS ride hurts a lot of people. Which is why they toned it down. Doing the alternative endurance ride recommend is better. For me the optimal plan is MV but sub in the Sunday long ride. The intensity is actually lower than LW. And I can skip Wednesday if I need to. And swap the Saturday workout for a group ride if I want.
Personally, I think it’s better to test. I don’t believe you guys who say you can magically feel your FTP unless you are doing frequent, longer threshold or 95% SS intervals. And if you are doing those, it’s basically like you are testing.
Last year, my FTP peaked at the end of July. I did hard group rides and mid-week maintenance intervals through September but my FTP drifted down by 25 watts by January 1st. I think that is pretty normal as you can’t stay at a peak forever. How many people can feel it without doing efforts that test it?
That’s kind of the problem though, the mv and hv are still too skewed towards the higher intensity side. The hv plans look like they are trying to balance the demands better than before and use more variety so kudos to the tr team for that. The team has said why it is this way, so that is the better business decision if it keeps people with tr, I’m not sure if I can blame them if too many users don’t want to do endurance rides.
KM protocol is just a protocol. He uses pdc and inflection point on the curve. Some people can ride 35min@FTP other 60min. And his protocols have different length for different athletes.
If you can hold the power for 35min - do extensive ftp training, if you can ride 60 - try on ftp or other limiters. You should be finaly able ride around 60 min at FTP but it’s not necessity for everyone. 40min will give you also good number for training.
I think we are on the same page. The problem is people can’t help themselves and want to do more and more. And then burn out. My guess would be 75%+ of the TR users would be optimized in a LV plan with supplemented endurance rides if they have the time. I’d be interested to see what % of users choose which volume of plan.
I the TR team is doing a good of balancing the at times opposing goals: making people faster and keeping people on subscription! My recommendation is that LV should be the default setting and users have to actively select MV or HV, with appropriate warnings/caveats. I think asking people how much time they have to train leads many to get slotted into MV and HV. And anyone over 50 should not be given the choice to select MV or HV unless they do MV with the Sunday ride being the long ride.
Nothing magical about it - It’s an intuitive response to tests, efforts, workouts etc that inform perception.
Nothing magical about knowing or not knowing what you can sustainably hold.
Just as a ramp test, or a 20 minute test, or a Kolie Moore test doesn’t magically give you an accurate result - all of these tests are just different protocols used to inform your likely FTP to be used as a training metric.
There is also no one true FTP, I don’t believe this. It probably fluctuates day to day depending on fatigue/recovery - although given it fluctuates quite closely.
Also, do you not do a lot of longer threshold and 95% SS intervals? I definitely do
No but I do use Golden Cheetah and WKO to double check and testing as verification.
That’s the problem and design behind many applications (Zwift, TP, Garmin, RGT, etc) that continues to blur the line with the 95% of 20 minute MMP and those that insist on a set time component to a physiological marker (just go back above in this post and you’ll find plenty).
Magically feel? For me on long pre-test pacing efforts, it takes 5+ minutes of being around ftp for HR to reach steady state around 158-162bpm. Start conservative and it can take 15 minutes. Here is an ok but conservatively paced effort from 2+ weeks ago: Where did you ride OUTSIDE today (2022) - #60 by WindWarrior
Once HR is around steady state, the fun starts with 1+ minute increases in power (~10W increments) and if HR drifts up its a tell. Its all about being able to tightly control power and knowing that HR can lag by 20-40 seconds, so I need to push a higher power for 1+ minutes before seeing a HR trend. The longer I go, the more I can feel breathing (& HR) increase when going over, so by 20 minutes into a 30+ minute effort then I try and pay attention to breathing as well.
Yes of course, part of this intuition is using data from these software, TT or race efforts, even chasing a KOM (If its a threshold-is effort) all can be used to inform your perception of ftp.
It’s definitely not like the 20 minute tests gives us all a perfect result - we all know this isn’t the case, Kolie Moore’s test doesn’t do this either - But we can use this data to inform our perceptions and the sensations we feel of riding at our FTP.
I’d like to hear more opinions though - maybe I am wrong - maybe perception isn’t enough and some test is going to give me a more accurate number - Kolie Moore definitely cuts it closer than Ramp Test for sure in this case.
“Training is testing and testing is training.” - Dr. Andy Coggan
One of the benefits of doing long, sustained efforts at or near threshold, or “all-out” efforts of 40-60min is that you develop a feel for MLSS, which is then applicable in all kinds of riding where you can’t stare at your power meter. It’s not magic. It’s just experience with those efforts. You can tell when you’re accumulating more lactate than your body can clear/tolerate, and so you back off, push up to that edge again until you find the range where you’re at MLSS. I never come out of one of those efforts going, “My FTP today is 284W.” Instead, I come out going, “Eh, 280 or 285 feels about right.” And that’s plenty accurate enough. Coupled with the knowledge of “feel”, that’s more valuable than an exact number anyway. (Then you can go back and look at your data and confirm what you were feeling… or not.)
After doing enough of this kind of work, I think a number of riders can figure out their threshold and feel it within the first 10-15 minutes of any given sustained effort.
Or you can just go out for a hard hour ride/race and use the NP to validate your FTP or do a 40km TT. Dr. Coggan cited 7 means of estimating your FTP. Only two are structured testing. Learn how to read your PDC is by far the easiest for me and occupy two of the seven sins.
Why does it always feel like “Use x test to validate what you think your FTP is, as its better then ramp” with the assumption that everyone already knows their ftp which is what is needed to be able to do the test. That assuption is great for some and may even be a needed thing at the higher end of the sport but isn’t really a good assumption for everyone.
Feels like arguing that everyone has a FTP over 3 watts/kg as I’m pretty sure all those who say its easy to know their FTP by feel also have a FTP above that
This makes me think you believe the FTP is defined as whatever you can hold 40-70 minutes
Your LT is your FTP and “most people” can ride at their FTP for 40-70 minutes “when rested” and “when cool enough” etc etc. Let’s say it’s 100 degrees, you will probably struggle to hit your numbers, your HR will be way higher than normal at any given power, and so on. But your LT (and therefore FTP) didn’t change. You just couldn’t perform at your best on this day.
A potential problem with testing based on power or RPE (feel) is the mental component. Sometimes athletes will undershoot their physiologic capacity because of mental weakness. If that is suspected, a good MLSS test can help separate legs from brain. If you can identify a problem you can take a shot at addressing it.
This works in reverse as well. If an athlete is convinced his/her FTP is 350, but their MLSS is 325, then they have actionable data. As an example, this type of thing is relevant if pacing a long TT by power.
I don’t mean to push MLSS testing as that has its own issues. But in some circumstances quantitative data can be useful. Mostly, be aware what you feel may not be what you can do. And RPE is not always telling you the truth.
I wish that was true. Mind hasn’t been in/above 3 for the last five years due to injuries. My best was only around 3.2 but I’ve been looking at my PDC since 2015 and took a good 2-3 years before seeing that dip. The tools are out there and some like Golden Cheetah is free.
So do 2 tests, which can’t really be done in a row cause the first will wear you out too much to do the second right after. Oh wait, the ramp test isn’t accurate as is being claimed so the first non ramp test will be wrong and you’ll need at least a third test. By that point I would think, "If I just did a ramp test I could be training and not worried about the results of the test.
As to getting easier going forward. So far for me long sweet spot intervals don’t feel much different from long endurance intervals for the first many minutes, just I can keep going on the endurance intervals. Seems like those who say its easy to go by feel are those who can go by feel.
Or another way to look at this. If you’ve reached the point that further improvments will be small, sure maybe a ramp test isn’t the best and you’ll know your FTP even if you can’t go by feel because it shouldn’t be very different. If you haven’t reached that point cause you have been lazy before this and just starting structured planning, ramp is perfectly fine. Even if wrong you’d probably have a hard time doing a more accurate test and your ftp will hopefully be changing enough that even if the test was right it will be wrong next week anyway so better to get on with training.
unless they do MV with the Sunday ride being the long ride.