my response was addressing two points, the adaptations of indoors vs outdoors, and also this point
from experience I know that for myself, endurance workouts don’t need the type of progression that TR is marketing. Further, once well trained, and when not told by TR to take a break (does adaptive training do that?), I question the entire premise of the base/build/speciality with linear increases in workout difficulty as progressive overload" approach. Because like I said earlier, think about the fundamentals. Linear progression as overload works well for awhile, and then you plateau.
OK I got a response from support re doing an unplanned VO2max workout on an enforced join rest day and getting exact same workout the next day.
The workout was Vo2max pyramid with 3 * 10 broken down into 2 min tempo, 2 min threshold, 2 min vo2max, 2 kin tempo, 2 min threshold, 2 min tempo.
Apparently I didnt accumulate enough time at vo2max, 6 mins according to support.
When I went back in to analysis the ride type allocated by join was “endurance”. So Join basically cannot classify its own workouts.
I’d argue its not even a vo2max workout, maybe thrrshold over / under. So maybe the post ride analysis is actually closer than the original classification.
Anyways somethimg to watch out for.
I had a 70 min .94 race last which which join classified as Vo2max and RPE 10 which is pretty much spot on and makes planning future races easier.
If you select a ride which wasn’t a planned workout there is a “Detected workout type” where it classifies as Vo2max etc, same page as RPE, HR etc. Pretty useful for planning non scheduled rides.
Garmin does this too, depending on the length of the ride and time at Threshold or above. You might do 90 mins on the bike, but only 15 mins above Tempo, and it will classify it like you did all Z 1/2/3, while still counting the time above.
Fist time I’ve seen the app say I did a different type of workout than prescribed. Pacing Tempo is 2x10 and 1x20 at 80-90% FTP. I did it in erg mode, bumped it up to 90% FTP, and did 30 additional minutes in sweet spot, but think this is more about the 20 minutes that JOIN thinks was threshold, which seems to be 91-106% FTP. I guess I’m used to threshold being 96-105% FTP.
That’s why you can’t look at a single cycle in a vacuum. The idea is that after that one cycle your FTP is higher and you could basically do the same thing and still have progressive overload from plan to plan.
Getting back to indoor vs outdoor. I’m of the opinion that both TR and Join can be done perfectly either indoor or outdoor. But, you really have to think about the route and terrain in your area. I’m quite lucky in that I have 2, 3 and 5 minute hills in my area for VO2 work. While also having a 1 hour flat loop with basically zero traffic around the corner.
As to seeing better results outdoor vs indoor. I’m willing to bet a fair amount that it’s because you’re actually doing more outdoor. Just looking at my own rides, outdoor workouts are usually 15 to 20mins longer then indoor. Just because I have to do a small bit of riding first. Do that for 5 workouts and that extra time will add up.
So the random nature of JOIN strikes again and this is the thing that really makes me think its a pretty crude algorithm.
I’ve been consistently getting decent hours which have mostly been endurance, intensive endurance with the odd VO2max. I finally get a threshold workout and its sandwiched between a intensive endurance workout and Vo2max.
Tue - 2 hour intensive endurance
Wed - 4 * 8 threshold
Thur - Short Vo2max 3 * 6 (2 mins Vox2max, 4 mins tempo)
The above scheduling makes no sense to me and makes me think it just random. I don’t think any coach would schedule a Vo2max day after a threshold would you could separate them with an easy endurance?
I had thought the entire ethos of polarised training was make your easy days easy and hard days hard.
Intensive endurance is not easy and bordering on low tempo rides. These are commonly referred to as the junk miles where you neither riding easy or hard.
I’ll raise it with support but their responses are pretty wooly.
I don’t think it’s random. It’s clearly building up in intensity over the three days, making you work harder the more fatigued you are. I think it’s a way to increase the workload with limited hours. Maybe a bit like a stage race.
Also Join’s vo2max work is not the all-out vo2max style (like eg the hard-start vo2max intervals from emprical cycling), and they are not sprints, so I don’t think you need to be super fresh for them.
With key workouts being quite sparse I would have thought priority was to be rested rather than fatuiged, I am following singke day event Marmotte plan not a stage race.
Yeah, I find them scheduling VO2 on the 3rd day annoying too. In my head, I tell myself they’re doing what Splash mentioned above, but I’ve never seen that done before with such consistency. I don’t follow power guidelines on VO2 days anyway though, so I just end up moving them around.
It definitely was a fast-paced (for me) group ride, and it felt harder than a 4h endurance. There were some climbs on the route (900m over 103km) and I did a couple of pulls (not too much) I didn’t sprint or consciously ride over the threshold.
Join detected this as VO2max, while Garmin as “tempo”
It felt like a “tempo” ride for me. I emailed their support, as I understand that the workout type detection is a “newish” feature so also wanted to leave this as a feedback.
N=1 here but I actually find this the most useful endurance to do. When comparing JOIN to TR, I have much more time in “intensive endurance” and much less time in sweet spot, threshold, and VO2, yet my fitness seems to be improving. FTP is improving, HR for a given power is reducing, and I can complete longer VO2 intervals that I previously struggled mightily on. YMMV, though.
I agree that this seem “random,” but I look at it as another way to stress the body, especially given that the next day is scheduled rest (JOIN’s philosophy of 3 work days to 1 rest day). I view it as a mini supercompensation within the overall plan. Whether JOIN thinks this way may be another thing, but it at least lets me get over it and try to push through. And, as @Pbase said, you can always just move it if you’re cooked.
Thanks for putting this down in words. I agree with you 100% about the results.
My stupid brain wants to fight with it though because it doesn’t look like what I’m used to, so I’m constantly second guessing right now. In my current plan, I’m probably following the recommended workouts at 50% at best because I want to see my CTL going up. I blindly followed the plans for almost a year with excellent results, but Houston summer is right around the corner which means my ability to suffer is going to decrease, so I’m trying to get in as much VO2 and Threshold as I can before I just can’t handle the heat and switch back to the LSRF plan. Tbh, it’s probably a fools task, trying to “just get in a few more CTL” when my CTL is already 15% higher than it was a year ago.
All that to say, I’ve also had great results, and in a month or so, I’m going to ignore my brain and the PMC and go back to just listening to Join and doing what works, as counterintuitive as that is!
I actually prefer the way Join does this over the way Garmin does. According to your screenshot, you did 35 minutes of VO2 and “several high intensity reps” along with 25 mins of Threshold. It actually bothers me when I spend a bunch of time in VO2 or do high intensity work and then Garmin classifies my workout as Endurance just because it was a long ride. IMO, at least according to the screenshot, that was definitely not a Tempo ride. It probably AVERAGED OUT to Tempo, but a bunch of VO2 and Threshold plus a bunch of Z1 and 2 doesn’t equal Tempo to me.
Before the advent of smart trainers or training Apps I’d always ridden these type of rides and probably my favorite type of ride solo, just saying they are touted as junk miles in some camps.
To be fair some of this is a carry over from TR of the feeling of dread for upcoming impossible workouts.
The JOIN VO2max workouts are generally much easier compared to the TR level 5-7 which I was generally in.
Agree completely. Depending on how I’m feeling, I’ll sometimes repeat intervals to get additional time in zone, but it’s nice to view it as a choice and not feel bad about “failing” a workout when I don’t hit every interval.
