Thank you sir! That checks with the values I’ve been considering and from what I’ve read the range for %maxHR is narrower than %FTP, making it a little bit easier to (imprecisely) dial in without detailed testing. Hence my planned method for my personal base period based on maxHR and the values I’m opting for.
3 Likes
I do a lot of this (as you know) + mid/low endurance (65% maxHR).
(for those keeping score, ~80-83% maxHR is Steve Neal’s HR cap, unless measured…now you know why).
4 Likes
Yeah I totally did not come up with that on my own. 
2 Likes
Neither did he. You’re in good company. Seems like your programming is solidifying
2 Likes
I’m 90kg and I second that
1 Like
if my LT1 is at 79% maxHR it doesn’t leave a lot of room for Tempo riding. any idea’s what i should do going forward keeping in bounds of ISM philosophy?
FWIW, Seiler usually throws out 60-70% of HRmax as an estimate. I seem to be around 67% but I’ve never done lactate testing.
1 Like
I had a pretty good idea as I think it’s tied pretty closely to VT1. But use a step test and start well below where you think it. LT1 has been shifting to the right as I continue training.
For LT1? I’ve not seen that. He throws that out as his recommended 3-zone “zone 1” prescription, not the LT1 boundary from what I’ve seen. For whatever it’s worth, Seiler disciple Trevor Connor uses .78 x FTP and .85 x LTHR for zone 1/2 boundary (which should correlate to LT1). When I was playing around with various testing last year (not drawing lactate), I was hanging out around 77-79% of maxHR for LT1 (which also happens to correspond to 0.85 x LTHR for me).
If you’re riding capped at 83% maxHR for long interval periods, you’re meeting the intent of tempo work. As you get fitter, the power you’re putting out at that HR will become more and more Coggan-tempoish.
1 Like
Maybe I’ve misunderstood all this time but I thought that Seiler’s zone 1/2 boundary was LT1. He’s always talking about the ‘first lactate threshold or turnpoint’.
1 Like
Yes, that’s how I understand it too, however his prescription of 60-70% max HR is for rides below LT1. Seiler, from all I’ve seen, doesn’t get much into riding around or at LT1.
Recently he’s come around to “cyclists need to spend some time riding in zone 2”, but I haven’t seen where he talks about it beyond as an aside. Many coaches who follow polarized methods prescribe AeT/LT1 and into tempo riding. Haven’t seen where Seiler the physiologist talks about it much at all.
As mentioned, Trevor Connor is a polarized coach and his zone boundaries are above (pulled from his three-zone TiZ WKO chart).
1 Like
Thanks. I guess what I was trying to point out was that Seiler’s 60-70% was another triangulation point I used.
Talk test: 125-130bpm
dfa alpha1: 125bpm (130bpm when fresh)
MAF: 125bpm
1 Like
As above Seiler wasn’t about riding near the zone boundaries. Give it a reasonable margin and you’ll know you aren’t working too hard on your easy sessions.
4 Likes
Well below, or very safely below… so not a proxi for LT1. (Whoops should have read all the replies before posting.) Oh well, I second or third the point.
1 Like
Remember when working out percentages LT1 will be higher when using the Ed Coyle definition (baseline + 0.5 mmol), which Clement32000 used.
My “inflection point” LT1 is about 5-bpm lower than my “+ 0.5 mmol” point.
Both are close enough as has been stated it’s not an exact science.
Heck, even 75% of CP gets me pretty close to the +0.5mmol version of LT1.
It’s also possible that some riders simply don’t have a baseline. You just jump on the bike and it’s high. The variability alone will be 0.5mmol.
I’m at a point where I think “today is a 115 day” (tired). When feeling good it’s “a 135 day”. No “interval-ization ” needed. Get in the ballpark of 135 bpm for most of the ride. Do that for a few days. Then cool the jets with 115 rides. Any progression comes from increased time in zone or overall volume.
2 Likes
Hi!
I do not agree with the fact that for some there is no baseline. There is ALWAYS a baseline even in untrained individuals and even in patients with type II diabetes. If during the lactate test no baseline is noticed, then the first level of this test is too high!
In some sedentary individuals, to observe a baseline, it is necessary to be at very very low watts of the order of approximately 1 w/kg or even less!
All this to say that during your lactate test if you directly observe an inflection in the lactate, it means that your first level is too high.
For indication with my athletes I started at 2w/kg which for these athletes is a pace at which they never ride because it is so low (for their levels).
Clément
1 Like
I am one of those individuals who needs to start a 1w/kg and use 0.1w/kg constant ramp to get good data. I am a sprinter phenotype with an underdeveloped aerobic system. As you see, my LT1 (~170 watts) is quite far from LT2 (~230-240 watts). I should have taken another sample between 220-240 watts, but the data is good enough for Gov’t use.
Here’s my test from June 4. The thresholds are very close to what I see from power-only analyses for lower- and upper-threshold. The lowest Bla concentration at about 135 watts is close to my estimated FatMax using Mader.
Max HR = 172 bpm
LT1 HR = ~133 bpm (77% Max)
LT2 HR = ~150 bpm (87% Max)
1 Like
On the existence of a baseline, I found this quite shocking. One of ISM’s most recent:
from left to right:
- post covid with comorbidities,
- post covid w/o comorbidities,
- metabolic syndrome,
- moderate active
This bug is nasty
3 Likes
Just to throw a wrench in there, my hr at lt1 is only about 70% of my peak hr from the last few years. My endurance rides are at an avg hr of like 110, but i mostly just institute a cap of 120 fir my “easy” rides. Breathing rate is still relatively easy, but has increased from the baseline.