I’m finding the vo2max sessions not that hard and the sweet spot sessions very challenging
Is this normal? I dread sweet spot workouts but don’t mind the vo2max ones at all. Is sweet spot just a weakness of mine that I need to build or is just how my power phenotype plays out?
Hard to provide advice without more information. Which sweetspot and VO2max workouts have you done? Could be a combination of too short/easy VO2s and over-estimated FTP or many other factors.
What workouts?
If you find SST hard you probably have an ftp that is too high.
For vo2 max it should always feel challenging, if not you are probably not going to get the desired stimulus. You can choose harder workouts to solve this until the ai catches up.
Could also be just the type of physiology you have. I find SST workouts fine, VO2 Max workouts hard, and Threshold workouts gutting.
I’ve always felt that way as well with VO2 and SS. The funny thing is Garmin is always telling me I have the VO2 max of a 90 year old.
Firstly, as people have alluded to above, genetic predispositions play a big part. Some riders have greater anaerobic contribution, some have higher fractional utilisation, some have massive aerobic capacities, and one dude in Slovenia has all of the above. Which strengths and weaknesses you have is determined largely by your parents, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be altered with training.
However, it would be good to get some examples of what workouts you’re doing to get an idea. Vo2 sessions can range from 30/30s and 2 minute intervals all the way to 5x5 minute repeats and alike. While I find 2 minute intervals pretty breezy even at 130% of FTP, I suffer like a dog during 4-5 minute intervals at 110-115%.
I’d also be curious to find out how much you’re fuelling sweet spot workouts. I can get away with just a quick breakfast before a 90 minute Vo2-workout, but if I’m doing sweet spot and threshold, I really start to fade after an hour if I don’t get the carbs in.
In other words, I think everyone in this thread could help you out if you provided some workout files and more information regarding fuelling, cooling (overheating is way more of a factor for sustained work), and other variables.
could be just personal yeah. I love <3min intervals and dread anything 5-20min.
That is problematic though if hes finding VO2 easy compared to SST. His FTP cant be to low and to high at the same time
Your SS abilities are pretty closely tied to your FTP while VO2 are not.
I do my SS at like 90-95% of FTP like everyone else but I do my 3min VO2s at like 140+%. So if I have my FTP set 10% too high then those SS workouts are now at or above FTP (Much too hard) but the ‘standard’ VO2 workouts at ~115% FTP would still be too easy.
Nearly everyone is going to be doing SS at the same %FTP with variations in TTE but %FTP of VO2 is going to vary pretty wildly between people.
All spot on, but it highlights the issue TR has in assigning power based upon FTP for all kinds of workouts when atheletes tolerances to Vo2 can vary significantly.
Giving the Ai hints or the ability to alter zone power based on completion feedback would be nice.
Yeah, it tries to with the Levels but for some people who are outliers in one way or another it’s just never going to be able to accommodate. It’s been several years since I was a TR subscriber so I’m not that familiar with their workout library but IIRC it would be pretty hard for me to be given the correct VO2 workouts that would fully stimulate that energy system. 3-4min at 120% will be hard but not nearly hard enough to improve my VO2max. When I was using TR it took me doing Sustained Build and doing 8-9min intervals at like 110+% to really go to that dark place and hit my max O2 uptake
Exactly. Peoples SST/ftp should be very closely aligned but their ftp and vo2 max can vary greatly between riders.
I do all of my SST stuff at 90% and call it good but my vo2 max intervals are at 125-130% of my ftp (generally something between 6x4m and 4x6m)
I don’t know which, if any, workouts in the tr library would be similar to that. It’s one of the big issues with basing all of your intervals at a % of ftp.
I agree with you all @Twowkg, @mwglow15, @G7NXX.
Prescribing Vo2-max and anaerobic work based on FTP comes with a lot of confounding variables. Anaerobic contribution and muscle fiber composition will impact power at these intensities greatly, which is one of the reasons that some riders will test “too high” on a ramp test. Likewise, riders that have poor anaerobic contribution and more slow twitch muscles (i.e. yours truly), will “under test” on ramp tests. I have great fractional utilisation, and I find that any sweet spot work, even very close to FTP (like 95-98%) is manageable from the get go after a bump in my threshold power setting. Likewise, while most people take 95% of their 20 minute power to determine FTP, I’ve found that taking 97-98% of my 20 minute power gets me much closer.
However, I’ve never been able to do 5x5 minutes at 120% of FTP. I’ve been over 5w/kg for my threshold several times, but my high end just won’t get there. With this in mind, I tend to opt for slightly “easier” workouts in the Vo2 and anaerobic categories while picking “harder” workouts when it comes to endurance, tempo, sweet spot, and threshold.
If someone with a greater propensity for anaerobic contribution were to copy my training, they’d fail the work below or at threshold while breezing through the workouts above it, just as I would fail all the Vo2 sessions and breeze through the work at or below FTP if I copied their program. We all know that racing to your strengths is the way to win, and we all have different ways of getting there in the end. I think more people should consider that in training, too.
My girlfriend is one of those outliers. Her FTP is literally less than HALF of mine. But her VO2 efforts (not TR, actually pushing herself) are insane. Once over 5ish minutes, then it’s a struggle. But when we are doing warm ups before a race, I actually have to push hard to match her sprint efforts.
Everyone is built different.
Yes, and it ranges across sports, too. I used to be a competitive powerlifter, and just like in cycling, coaches prescribe workouts based on a percentage of a 1RM. Many also use rep maxes, like 3RM and 5RM, to infer what an athletes 1RM may be without actually having to go through the extremely taxing process of maxing out. This is similar to employing ramp tests, 2x8 minute, or 20 minute tests to infer FTP.
Since I had the same parents when I did powerlifting as I do now when cycling, my slow twitch predisposition is painfully obvious. The average athlete finds that about 85-87% of a 1RM correlates to a 5RM on a given lift, but since my anaerobic contribution is so relatively poor, 87% of my 1RM correlated better to my 10RM than my 5RM. In other words, I could do twice as many reps as expected at a given percentage due to my muscle fiber composition. When I could deadlift 300kg (661lbs), I could bang out ten reps at 260kg. For most other athletes I trained with, a 10RM at 260kg would correlate to a max lift of about 345kg (759lbs). Safe to say, being a “slow twitch person” is not an advantage in power sports.
Same goes for my experience with 20 minute tests in and ramp tests in cycling. 97-98% of my 20 minute power correlates better to my FTP than 95%, and if I use a ramp test to infer my FTP, I’ll end up setting it at least 10-15% too low.
I’ve always been impressed by people like @JSTootell ‘s girlfriend, who just seem to have some god given ability to just be explosive. Sure, having really good fractional utilisation and endurance makes for a good breakaway rider (which is what I had to get good at), but it doesn’t quite have the same superhero vibe as a small rider with a ridiculous punch like Caleb Ewan.
May I suggest doing your VO2 workouts in either Standard or Resistance Mode, ignoring power targets, just sending it, and going max (that’s repeatable) for each interval. VO2’s shouldn’t be easy. You are looking for your breathing to feel like a “fish out of water” type gasping for air.
I think the TR crew has hinted that this is in the works.
Best description of Vo2 breathing I’ve ever heard
TBH this is what we all should be doing.
