Is this in regards to just calorie absorption? I think this is where we are getting a little mixed up. I think you are coming from a calorie absorption perspective and I’m coming from calorie and hydration perspective.
Sis and maurten products are not hydration drinks. They are energy drinks. So sure they will only look at the calorie absorption perspective and ignore hydration. Skratch comes from hydration perspective and says differently. But you can double or triple up your skratch volume and get to 400 calories/hr and have best of both worlds.
I agree the hardest thing about using the proper amount of water for best hydration AND calorie absorption is having to carry it. But that’s a personal problem and shouldn’t effect science, so we should mention that caveat. Another words we should report the science shows lower concentrations are better, but each has to make a choice in how much they can carry.
You keep talking about stomach. It’s not the only place where water can be pulled from your blood. And that is exactly my point. You have to think about what is going on in small intestines too. And the effects of dehydration are more severe than running low on carbs. Once dehydration starts it makes it even harder and more severe to absorb carbs.
It is that passive 2 way osmosis gradient. 2 way. Eat a sis Maltodextrin gel by itself and tell me that doesn’t pull water from your blood. It’s same reason that in a survival situation, you should not eat unless you have drinkable water.
I didn’t want to cite skratch, as they are selling a product after all. But I keep getting told about sis and maurten facts. So here you go.
I’m dumfounded as to why we are still debating this. You posted that study that had so many references to scientific data that supports what I’m saying that I eventually gave up on posting them. You posted it, not me.
That link describes why Skratch uses the concentration that they do. Interestingly, it matches the concentrations recommended in that study you linked.
Sis and Maurteen are just focused on winning the marketing battle. Skratch sees how big the market is for people chugging down beta fuel and just recently created their own “energy drink”. But they specifically state that they don’t believe it’s the best option for both hydration and fueling.
Except it doesn’t go into the intestines all at once. So not more concentrated than maltodextrin. Think of a rice cake. A steady trickle of starches into the intestines broken into glucose. The rice cake is also something like 80% water. So it actually provides more than that gel would.
Don’t get me wrong, I use sis gels too. It all depends on what type of ride I am doing. But my experience for longer rides, I do better with rice cakes and non gels. And I have hit the hydration wall way too many times in my earlier years of riding, and I was drinking the same # of bottles. Just different concentrations than I do now.
Again we are arguing over such a small scope? I said “something like 80%”. 60% is still pretty damn high. And not all 400cals are rice . 240cal/hr is skratch. so maybe 100-150/cal is rice. And that chart proves my point. Fill you tummy up with water volume, eat your rice cake. Then as you continue to drink throughout the hour you keep refreshing that “maximum emptying rate” by topping your tummy up. While you are keeping your tummy at max emptying rate, you rice cake is evenly dispersing starch->glucose into your small intestines, never overwhelming it and providing lots of hydration. At the end of the hour you end up with the same caloric intake as you would cramming gels.
Agreed to a point. I’m not against maltodextrin. I’ve stated that I use it. For short efforts or at end of longer ones. I’ve just stated that an increase in calories needs to be matched with an increase in water.
Disagree. It may matter how you get the calories. That’s the entire premise behind the 2:1 ratio. And the concentrations discussed in this thread are not reasonable based on the science on hydration and fueling. I’ll point you back to that article you posted for the proper concentrations to aim for.
I think the second paragaph kind of renders the first paragraph moot.
I don’t know anyone who takes more than 2 750ml bottles with them even on a 4 hour ride, let alone chugs them both in less than an hour.
And as for the figures given in that Skratch lab blog, are pro cyclists really drinking 2 litres every hour at 75-80 fahrenheit? That’s a lot of trips to and from the team car, not to mention a lot of trips to bushes at the side of the road.
It’s an interesting theoretical discussion but we should really be concerned with what’s practical on the road and on the turbo.
hmm, maybe I’m not understanding your post. I’ve got two 24oz / 700ml bottles. On warm summer morning rides say 75-90F / 24-32C with 8am start I’ll finish one water bottle and one fuel (Gu Roctane energy drink mix at 250 cals / 60g carbs) in the ~1.5 hours it takes to get to first water stop. And I’ll drink the same on the next ~1.5 hours it takes to reach the next water stop. So thats 2 fuel + 2 water bottles on the first 3 hours. And then drink a little more for the last 20-60 minutes to get home.
On a hot 95F / 35C two hour evening group ride I’ll put a third bottle in my jersey pocket, one fuel and two water.
I have switched to UCan, it’s a little expensive, but it works. When I did triathlons I suffered on the run with the runs, just too much sugar on the bike. Back in December I started training for a 50 miler (was cancelled), I knew I needed to figure out my fueling. After listening to a bunch of marketing hype on podcasts I decided to give it a try.
The two major claims is no sugar spike (consistent energy) and gentle on the stomach. For every run over 3 hours I used it. I didn’t get any sugar spikes and I had consistent energy throughout the run, my stomach never felt better. I fueled a 4.5 hr run with a UCan drink before, another UCan at 1.5-2 hrs and then at 3.5 hrs. I did supplement with a couple of SIS gels, 1 SIS bar and a Clif bar.
I’m sold on UCan now. I’ll sip on it throughout the 1.5 hr Saturday TR ride with no food before.
The consistency can be a little different at first, but I have gotten used to it and don’t mind it all. You really need a shaker bottle for or sometimes I use a magic bullet to blend.
I recall Lionel Sanders saying his Kona sweat rate was something like 10+L/hr. Race day temps can get up to 95F so maybe in the 75-80F range he might only need to drink 4L/hr.
Then there’s the infamous Floyd Landis Tour stage where he went through 70 bottles in ~3.5 hrs. Even if he drank only 25% of those, that’s still 2.5L/hr (at the very least)…in ~90F temps. Same effort in lower temps maybe 1.5L/hr at a minimum.
All things considered, yeah, pro cyclists very likely could drink 2L/hr…depending on the efforts.
I do. Many times I’ll have 2 bottles and a camelback containing 2 more bottles and that last me 2hrs (for max efforts for my duration). First paragraph is from a science perspective, second from a logistical perspective. So its not moot. I completely understand the logistical argument. But it doesn’t change the science. So when we give folks recommendations on this forum on this subject, we shouldn’t change the scientific best practice because of logistic issues. We should tell them what’s scientifically best, and let the logistics be their problem to figure out.
So your fluids contain 60g in 1400ml = 4.3% solution. Which puts you in an awesome place for both fueling and hydration. It actually gives you a good bit of room to add more carbs without needing to add more water.
EDIT: Nvm, you mean drinking both per hour I think? Read that wrong.
Unrelated: In a few days, I’m going to try a test of eating as close to 10gr/kg/bodyweight CHO per day for a week, just to see how I feel. Plan on tracking weight and RPE, and I don’t intend to increase sleep or intentionally alter any other variables. Anything else I should pay attention to?
I just figured it out via trial & error so that is interesting to read. On longer 4+ hour rides I pack some solid food (Cliff bars, granola bars) and start munching after first 2 hours. Seems to work as I don’t bonk and don’t need more water.
Tonight’s 2 hour ride was 80F at the start, and dropped to 66F after 1.5 hours. Did a hard 1x60 min interval and drank both bottles. Thought it was going to be warmer so one bottle had Precision Hydration 1500 and the other just water. Not sure about the accuracy of this Garmin sweat loss feature:
. 240cal/hr is skratch. so maybe 100-150/cal is rice. And that chart proves my point. Fill you tummy up with water volume, eat your rice cake. Then as you continue to drink throughout the hour you keep refreshing that “maximum emptying rate” by topping your tummy up. While you are keeping your tummy at max emptying rate, you rice cake is evenly dispersing starch->glucose into your small intestines, never overwhelming it and providing lots of hydration. At the end of the hour you end up with the same caloric intake as you would cramming gels.
