Uh oh. First I’ve heard these two acronyms. Not sure I want to hear any more. But if I did, where would I look?
Like some others my FTP apparently went down a few percent when I changed from virtual power on a KK to a power meter and a smart trainer, but my time over distance numbers on identical outside rides prove I’m riding faster than I was – maybe just because smarter – even though in late 70’s my FTP is pretty static. Like OP I use TR because I feel better when I do.
I’ll take it. I’m just not in that much of a hurry to get to my Finish Line.
I first came across them on another cycling forum on a thread about training but if you search for “Minimum Effective Volume” then you’ll end up on weight lifting/body building sites but I suppose the concepts are the same.
riffing on JoeX’s stimulation / loading… On the load/stimulation side it can be very personal. About 6 years ago at roughly your age I started doing spin classes twice a week, and bought a mountain bike. Same height and back then was at 240 and while I’ve lost weight haven’t seen your weight since college. Quickly plateaued on 45 minute spin classes, so I started going to the gym at 5am and doing 75 minutes twice a week. That plus riding around town at least twice a week for 90 minutes starting seeing some fitness gains.
Next I sold mtn bike and bought a road bike. Stopped going to spin classes. Looking at 4 years of road biking data, all my best gains are during periods when training consistently at weekly volume of 450-600 TSS and time 6-9 hours/week. Joined a local bike club and have been doing at least one long ride a month, plus weekly Wed night rides from March to October that are flat but due to the wind are more like 60 minute climb.
Haven’t seen you comment much on the composition of each week, or if you’ve figured out your own personal stimulation / volume requirements. This isn’t all that helpful, but given my short time riding I’ve definitely seen improvements after each dedicated block of training. Maybe not too surprising, but I suspect part of it is due to the type of riding I’m doing. That said, sometimes gains are FTP, sometimes it is other things like repeatability of short power. And then fitness drops in the hot hot summers from reduced riding (family distractions and swimming). Over the past year I’ve been doing leg work in the gym, and to my delight am starting to see improvements. It hasn’t been easy balancing cycling with strength training, because I need more stimulation / volume to drive fitness on the bike. Going to sound like a broken record… Friel’s Fast After 50 book should be required reading in your late 40s or early 50s.
Hi @EveryThirtyMins, I don’t know the answer but you’re not that different to me. 57 and been using TR for some time. I hover between 245 and 280 FTP depending on whether I’ve been too busy at work or with life to train. Doing a program gives a bit of a boost to FTP within that range but mainly it makes me feel better physically and mentally. Not sure if you have periods of not training but I do and I compare the training benefits to that rather than concentrating on the absolute gains.
Last year I did a solid build plan to work up to our club TT, felt reasonably good and got the same time as I did the year before when i felt totally unfit. However, I felt much happier going into it because I’d been riding more. I’m now more inclined to work towards happiness than form
So maybe all these suggestions would help me too. I sort of feel as if I was more consistent/pushed more/went to the gym more/wasn’t so busy at work that I’d be flying. Maybe. But I’ll settle for happy.
My thoughts may be redundant, I did not read all the replies… anyways:
If you are not sure about your performance gains and you don’t have accurate power measurements: do an outdoor ride every few weeks, track it with Strava free (or whatever) and see if your perceived performance matches with the real-world performance. Try to pick a ride with climb(s) if available.
I have seen reasonable outdoor performance gains even in times when no FTP gains were rolling in… age 45.
It’s an interesting point for me - I haven’t put in anything like that level of bike TSS since starting TR, particularly as I use triathlon plans. Maybe time for a bike focus block…
20 minute test is too short for most people and only accommodates about 50% of the people. The other 50% can be over or underestimated. I generally use 45min super hard effort like a crit or TT. To estimate ftp. Those 20 min test can severely over estimate your ftp and training zones with jacks up training tress scores. I usually don’t believe an ftp increase happens, unless it’s duplicated. Meaning I don’t raise my ftp much from a single effort, often only half of it.
Then how tired, hydrated, or how well we eat the night before said test makes a difference. Go have ribs and fried okra and french fries the night before your TT tor ftp test and you will be way low. Have a low fat meal the night before and you will get a separate ftp. As we get older, in my opinion, ftp comes slower than it did when I was 35, and even harder to hang on to. But your workout of choice might also be the problem. And you need to identify if your physical strength or your fitness is holding you back, because they require different stimuli from a different set of workouts to get gains. And sometimes our bodies just need a change from what we have been doing.
Quite agree. I am 61, just starting third season of TTing. Struggled a bit this winter with TR until I realised I was trying to do too much. Cut back from MV to LV plus outside rides and extra sessions and it makes me feel much better… I prefer to cream sessions, rather than struggle and feel I am failing.
I was going to start a new post but saw this one so will just add my less thoughtful concern at the bottom of this thread. I am the same age as EveryThirtyMins and wonder if I’m also plateauing.
Today’s FTP test and it went down! Granted, it only decreased by 2 points but shouldn’t it be going up?
The test started week 5 of the General Build (Mid vol) training block which follows a SSB Mid vol block. I felt like I gave up too soon but I ALWAYS feel that way after the ramp tests. Admittedly, this past 4 weeks have been the hardest TR training to date. Poor sleep is part of the problem but it’s probably the training. I’m tired a lot and barely making it through some of the workouts . . . but okay on many. For the first time I decreased the intensity of 3 workouts 90%, two of which were on easy recovery days and the other mid-workout. I had to take one day off because I was under the weather.
For what its worth:
Second year doing TR workouts.
Some decent FTP jumps until now.
Need to do more strength training but am tired enough I did not want to increase my load so I could get through the TR workouts.
Its only been 4 weeks since the last FTP test.
Using a smart trainer.
5,000 miles per year for 3 years now. Riding for 5 years.
EveryThirtyMins, hang in there. I’m combing through the responses on this post because there is a ton of good advice in here. Honestly, I’m afraid the advice for both of us might be more recovery so the low vol. Or, is it sacrilege to just o Lazy Mountain every Wed? I’m so stuck in the mileage game that its not something I want to do. The other Chad said the following (it was nice to hear that it’s the “real deal”) and that is probably the advice I should follow.
I am doing Mid Volume again this season. I have followed them for at least the 2 prior seasons and maybe more. I did mess around with Mid-High Volume blends a long time ago, and created more problems than I solved.
Edit to add: Not sure I mentioned it, but for reference: I am 46 yo, have been training actively since 2013, and riding seriously since the mid '90’s.
I’m 52 and can relate to the lack of improvement. I’ve been on TR for a few years now. I usually see about a 5% bump after base but usually nothing after build. I usually hit 3.4W/kg and there it stays. I’ve tried Low Vol and Mid Vol, 3 to 1 and 2 to 1 recovery weeks. I have generally found that for me the TR plans as laid out are just too much intensity. This year I’m riding more often (6 days a week), doing less intensity (only 2 TR interval sessions) and doing longer weekend endurance/tempo rides. I have seen a little bump in FTP but what I have really noticed is that muscular endurance has improved (I can hold 80% for way longer than I could 8 weeks ago). It’s still an experiment in process. As frustrating as it can be, ironically its probably what keeps me training. Its this quest to figure out what works for me. Unfortunately there isn’t a set answer that works for everyone and you will ultimately have to experiment and see what works for you.
Several thoughts other than those already mentioned.
How are you measuring improvement other than FTP? What is your HR telling you for similar workouts.
Perhaps the ramp test doesn’t work for you well. It doesn’t for me, therefore I use the 20’ minute test.
Einstein definied madness as repeating the same thing and expecting a different result. Try changing plans. Maybe a polarised model with some very intense efforts and lots of L2 riding (not Seiler L2). Or push the sweetspot more (I know build does that). Get yourself out of your comfort zone.
And if you are looking to a more visible example a workout inspired by the article, the original Disaster by Coach Chad, as well as the reduced Disaster -1 & Disaster -2 made by Cameron Somerson and me are worth a look.
Yeah, I was going to post Disaster as a recommendation also, but I think I remember hearing @chad say on a somewhat recent podcast (maybe last fall) that he did not recommend that anyone complete Disaster. Although, if I remember correctly, I think it’s a workout that @Jonathan created. I could be wrong about that though. My memory ain’t the greatest (too many concussions).
Coach Chad made it (not Jonathan). He did it with the Kitchen Sink info from Hunter as inspiration, because he wanted to see what it would look like in a TR workout.
Yes, they said “no one should do it” but that taken out of context missed the real point they finally got to. They admit that you can do the workout, but you better look at it like an event and not something to just bounce into and out of.
That is exactly how we approach doing it, as an event like any other hard event or race. Prep before, including an appropriate taper, and plan on an easy return afterwards. Nothing overly special other than the main factor of 4+ hours on a trainer being notably different than outside.
Couple that with the fact that the -2 version is just over 2 hours and is actually a fine workout on it’s own. It is much more manageable than the full version and actually not as terrible as some would expect.
The kitchen sink ride idea isn’t a bad one, I just think it’s a bad one for this particular athlete at this particular time. But that’s hard to know without further detail or insight. What I glean from his posts is he’s doing MV plans, six weeks of structured training and his testing is getting worse. He’s in his fifties. I’d bet he’s not recovering from the work he’s doing, and would benefit more from a schedule change allowing more recovery rather than throwing in even more work.
This reads more like a case of fatigue than a case of stagnation, IMO.
