I dont mean hitting max hr in the ramp test. I mean in the all out 1 hour races etc, like i mentioned I had done around the same time I also did the ramp test,. I did 5x9 over-unders yesterday and max hr was just 154, my Vo2 sessions tend to peak out 158-160bpm. Ramp test i managed to get to 165 HR. I dont believe ive ever hit 170bpm on the bike ever, despite working hard enough to feel like i was going to fall off and legs screaming for mercy lol.
TL;DR
People focus on FTP far too much.
Considering that the FTP number is the primary focal point that sets training intensity in TR, I think it’s valid for some concern. It need not be perfect, but something reasonably close is helpful.
The range of experience and variability we see with any test can lead to legitimate questions about the accuracy (and potential effectiveness) of the FTP from any test.
So understanding each person’s results and potential adjustments in the future is worthwhile, with the goal of getting it closer and hopefully lead to better training as a result.
Agree with all of that, but the anxiety of testing for it and the self-worth measure following are overwhelming on these discussions.
It’s a good starting point, and should be assessed, but just go with feeling. More summary… if the workouts are too easy, increase it, if they’re too hard, decrease it.
/thread
If you’re just starting, you don’t know what this means. Hell, I started a year ago, and I still don’t really know what this means. Is Lamarck too hard, or am I just tired today? Is Tallac too easy, or is this what sweet spot feels like?
Trusting that my first FTP test set appropriate training levels was a huge motivator at the beginning. I don’t have the training or experience to self-coach, so I’m entirely dependent on the training and experience that the TR coaches build into the platform. A virtual authority figure telling me “it’s hard but you can do this” (or as people love to say here, trust the plan) is how I got through the first twelve weeks. I tackled the hard and intimidating workouts because I trusted the plan, and the plan said I was ready.
All that to say, figuring out reasonable training zones is important, and if you don’t have lots of experience under your belt, you can’t just go with feeling. If I had over-tested at the beginning, I would have trusted the plan, assumed the inevitable string of failures meant that I’m not cut out for this after all, and quit.
I’d consider that you did a harder workout than the plan called for. Galena +2 is noticeably harder than Galena +1, and +1 is already very difficult. And still you only started faltering at 99% threshold after already riding 50ish min bumping up against threshold and hitting 127 all time PRs. I’d say you did a great job at FTP with your FTP at 217. Thumbs up!
If all the workouts are too difficult, as it sounds like they are, sure then set FTP lower. You’re almost certainly better off erring on the low side than high side, particularly during build. Build phase is tough. You don’t want to get burned out.
I’m sure you realize the 20 min FTP test is not 95% of the last 40 min of an hour at threshold!
My point is always this, failing one workout is normal, or struggling with one workout is normal. When it become a trend you have adjust down. Same thing with the workouts being too easy, adjust up. Even coaches don’t make plan adjustments on a single workout, it’s all about trending. Successfully completing 100% of your workouts, even if it’s adjusted down is more important than finishing 50% of them based on an FTP you set 4 weeks ago.
I know for sure 
That’s why I take 205 instead of 199(If it looks like I understand in some wrong way, please let me know). That value actually quite fit to my previous experiences during build phase. For example, first week of SPB had Mount Goode, which is 3x15 at 95-99%. I successfully finished the workout, but RPE disparity between 206w and 215w was comparably huge. Next week’s Bashful+1 I have to reduce intensity down to 97%. Instruction says things about when to increase intensity but that was totally unacceptable to me. Next week’s Bashful+2 makes me feel same as I have to decrease intensity down to 95% but still struggled to finish. Those trend makes me choose 205w.
This looks great point. For those who are just getting into structured training doesn’t know the feel (including me.), but trend is relatively obvious than feeling. I wrote workout notes in good detail and I think it’s good discipline to come up with trend of my workout progress.
What about certain types of riders? I am quite sure that I am more a fast-twitch muscle guy (good 30sec to 5min power) with a high anaerobic capacity. VO2 max session are enjoyable for me, Treshhold work is nightmare. So, muscle endurance is my definitive weakness and Ramp test probably over-inflates my ftp a bit, because of my anaerobic capacity.
I did a lot of SS work this winter to combat this weakness. Still, higher SS or treshold work is really hard, VO2 is quite easy. How to proceed? Lower ftp? At the moment I am turning down SS work 3%, which makes it doable for me. For VO2 max stuff, I stay at 100%, even could probably turn it up a few points.
Should I really try to improve my weakness and “get used” to treshhold stuff or would it be more beneficial for a fast-twitch guy to focus on lower intensity SS work (for example Seneca Rocks) especially if I am not that time crunched and have time to extend volume instead of intensity?
For sure, I do not want to lose my short-power punch, as I am relying on my sprint. Still, I want to increase ftp at the same time.
If you are lowering all of your sweet spot and threshold, it’s probably better just to reduce your FTP and then raise the intensity for VO2 Max efforts. This way your TSS will track accordingly. However if you’re only lowering intensity occasionally then you can adjust the workouts when they are needed. I am similar but struggle just with over/unders, but am decent at SS and can manage threshold. I have to reduce o/u by 3% or I’m smoked after the first interval.
yeah, I have to be more precise: SS work in general is doable, but the longer stuff (3x20min, 4x15min etc.) as well as Treshhold an Over/Unders are really hard.
I thought I overtested on my Ramp test a month or so ago, with my FTP going from 245 to 255. Workouts were too hard, and a new baby in the house made me reduce it back to 241, and since then I’ve gradually upped it manually.
Yesterday I took my first 20 Min FTP Test, as an additional workout, just to try it. I knew I had to hold 270 for the 20 min interval if I wanted to get that original 255 again (270 x 0.95).
And I did. I still think I had overtested on the Ramp test, but maybe not, and the 20 Min test was a “fun” alternative.
So maybe for those who think they over test, it can be useful to try the 20 Min test.
Local person who uses TR said he thinks ramp test over-estimates his ftp. So he compared 20min test results back to back over long period of time. He concluded (ramp test ftp) x 0.95 quite nicely matches his 20min ftp test result and also work nicely with his workout.
My ramp test results(which I thinks over estimated) were 217 and 214, and my adjusted ftp was 205. If I took 0.95 on ramp test results, they sit around my adjusted ftp value.
I know that 0.95 is anecdotal, but It looks somewhat useful for those who think ramp test over estimates one’s ftp.
We know the ramp test formula is taken as 75% x last avg min power… the 75% is not set in stone, everyone isn’t the same, believe the 75% was ‘accurate’ for the majority.
We have been told that altering the formula can give individuals a more accurate FTP. If I was finding it over-estimating, I would change the formula to maybe 74% or 73% or (whatever works for you) x last avg min power.
So my conclusion would be it’s probably like the bell curve, majority/peak at the 75% but you could be either side (sound like you are in the same place as this local person) , only you alone can make the decision on experience/testing.
Good thread for me. I am new to TR. Once I got my trainer hooked up I did a Ramp Test without any forethought. I warmed up properly and the result was 218 watts. The issue is that the workouts are too difficult. I dialed a Goddard back to -5 and I thought I was going to toss my cookies, pushing me into Zone 4 of HR.
Background. I am working full time, studying for a masters, so time is not plentiful. I can do 30-minute, maybe 45-minute workouts in the morning and a 1.5-2-hour ride on weekends. I am kind of starting From zero. Last year I rode some gravel races with only long slow ride on the weekend. I finished everyone of them, but the climbs comically slow. (A long weekend ride was all the time I could afford.)
So, I need to dial back the FTP in TR, but how much? 10%, 15%, 20%? Is there a scientific way to look at this? (TR didn’t have my HR data until the last ride, so not a lot of data. It will have HR data going forward.)
I may dial in a 10% reduction and reassess unless collective wisdom has a better approach.
Thanks in advance
You can start with a 5 to 10% reduction. I would just lower your FTP and not lower the percentage for every workout. If you find that 10% is too much reduction then try to find a happy middle ground. You may find after a week or two of consistent training that the workouts become a bit easier and you’ll need to increase your percentage.
The other way is to try a 20 minute test and see what you come up with.
HI AJS914, yes that is another way. TR support offered that as well.
I tried reducing FTP 10% and it is a really good fit. In several weeks I will test again and use the 20-minute test and see what happens.
With the original FTP I couldn’t complete the workouts and had to go with the -5 alternatives so I could cut the duration in half. Now, I can do the full time and am feeling good.
Thanks for the idea,
Dan
Why is Lamarck in the base phase?
Not sure I can answer that without speculation to Coach Chad’s motives?
Not sure this helps, but here is the weekly info related to the workout, in context:
