FTP slap down! How the Turbo Muin duped me! And a Trek Émonda broke me!

Training
#1

I was living the dream, went from 120 to 225 ftp in 3 months! I’d discovered Zwift and wasn’t a cyclist but wanted to have a go. Got an Elite Turbo Muin from Halfords and hooked it up (bodged it together) with my old mountain bike! Smashing it - got into B cat from nowhere then…

I got a proper road bike a Trek Émonda - completely different set up and riding position from upright to doubled over - I’m using muscles ive not trained AND I got a Wahoo Kickr V5 - thinking … I’m gonna bust this Zwift thing and get to be an A racer this time next year! After all I only had 4 working gears on my mountain bike mashup!

How wrong I was! Ftp has tanked from 225 to 190 with a combination of an over reading trainer and a new riding position!

My question is - how much do you think the change from riding very upright on a mountain bike to the leaned forward Trek Émonda will have impacted my power?

I already know the Turbo Muin was whispering sweet FTP nothings to me - but my hope is that the move from mountain to road bike may have also hurt my abilities meaning … I can improve!

Thoughts?

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#2

It’s the muin/ misuro b sensor. I saw a similar change when I went from muin to power meter (and then smart turbo).

2.5 years on, with pretty consistent training, I still haven’t hit my last muin/ misuro b FTP! Sorry for your troubles.

#3

My turbo bike is an old hard tail MTB but the saddle height and position to the cranks are the same as my road bike, or as near as possible. Everytime you get a new set up you should retest and leave your ego at the door.
I doubt you’ve lost it all due to the riding position - if anything it’s the change in your one truth being the power meter/trainer.
Happens lots on here.
I went from tyre on to direct drive had a big drop which I had to put down to that and as @Macy said they experienced the same with the Muin.
My warranty replacement turbo arrived yesterday from Halfords so I’ll be having my own reality check this weekend. :joy:

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#4

Damn it!

Well that doesn’t fill me with hope but I’m going to give it all to get back to 225!

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#5

I should add, exact same bike for me - first added the power meter, and then brought the Hammer.

I have had an old 7 speed on the Hammer subsequently, well until lockdown and zwifting. I’ve tried to nail the positions, but probably not exactly, and don’t notice any difference in power. Saddle more comfortable on the 11 speed bike, and more gears to reach for zwift racing.

I’ve never had power on an MTB to compare, but I would suspect less of an issue compared with going on aero bars to be honest.

#6

I used a Muin for years. First on virtual power then with a power meter. Then I switched to a SMART trainer and initially my FTP remained constant but then I started using ERG rather than Resistance mode and find with my relatively low wattage ERG drags me into the spiral of death too easily and I dropped my FTP. A little down the line though my w/kg is more.

#7

Buying a power meter and using that instead of the misuro b sensor was one of the best things i have purchased for my bike!!

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#8

Yep, been there. In August, my good old Tacx wheel-on announced I had an FTP of 310 at a weight of 72kg. Boom!

I then upgraded to an Elite Suito. First FTP test…267. Oh dear.

3 months latter I’m now just over 270 (and 73kg - oops), though having covid hasn’t helped.

It will come, but don’t get hung up on absolute numbers. It’s the progress that counts.

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#9

Your still up 70, so tanked is not how you should look at it. You probably went from 90W to 170W with something more accurate.

I had a Kurt Kinetic and actually increased watts, this was 7-8 years ago. I had tightened the roller too much because I got tired of slipping during surges and sprints. I didn’t know at the time but it was robbing me of watts with all that extra friction.

That started me down the rabbit hole of “better” watts and a power meter addiction. So, good luck to you!

#10

You will have found that at the time you were at 225 if you jumped on lots of different trainers with the same bike and did the same test your numbers would have been all over the place anyway - yes within a range depending on tyre pressure, direct drive, accuracy of power on trainer etc… but there would still have been a variety.

If your numbers had been 190 and then you got the new bike and trainer and it jumped to 225 what would you have thought? Was the new trainer and bike worth an additional 30 watts …

What I’m saying is that if any trainer is under or over reading that applies to every test, workout and zwift race. So changing the trainer just means a different “truth” in terms of the numbers displayed. The bike I don’t think will make a massive difference unless the position is very different.

#11

Same thing happened to me. Went from ~315 on a Tacx wheel on to ~285 with a Stages PM.

#12

I just leave that here as info/warning:

Keep up the good work. Cycling is a sport for the lang haul. Zwift is fun and I’m happy it keeps motivating you. I would not compare myself with anyone on Zwift though. Too many Elito Muins and worse trainers out there… combine that with (knowingly or unknowingly) wrong calibrations and well, let’s say optimistic weight estimations. By default if you play fair you arrive with a spoon at a gunfight. So have fun on the platform, race, but don’t worry about race categories or results…

P.S.: I stopped participating in any FB / reddit discussion about FTP gains on Zwift. Too many people with +100% FTP gain in 2-3 month that don’t want a friendly reality check that a) either it might be worth checking their hardware to get accurate result and b) they shouldn’t expect the same FTP increase rate as with the beginner gains.

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#13

I was scrolling through this thread thinking - I am going to have to break the bad news about the Kickr - Edmonda combo…thanks Toby, saved me from doing it.

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#14

Yeah, I decided to be the dick of the day here. That’s why I doubled down with my FTP rant…

But keep up the good work Sarah, seems like you are enjoying it and you are making great progress - even if the actual numbers were not accurate, the progress is clearly there!

#15

Hi Guys

Yes I saw that thread after I placed the order for the Émonda 20 but we broke it out in Sigma Sports and tested it - was fine. I have been using it here for about 2 weeks and so far so good. I know the ‘21 is classified by Wahoo as incompatible.

Hey… maybe that’s why my ftp went down :smiley: (I can wish).

Thanks for all the advice, I know I shouldn’t get hung up on the numbers. I am doing this to get fit and lose weight and that hasn’t changed :slight_smile:

#17

I went from wheel on trainer with my old road bike, to a new direct drive trainer with the same bike then permanently fixed my hard tail MTB onto the trainer. That trainer died and replacement has just arrived.

Each time I’ve changed something my FTP has changed - I just take that as my new truth and get on with it,. I’ve been using my newer road bike with a power meter of rollers. My FTP is going to be all over the place.

Many people think that FTP is everything - it’s not. Also watts per kg is I think a better indication of fitness but again only to you. You could have the same FTP as someone twice your size - you’d smoke them on the hills and flats - less weight to carry up the hills and probably more aero on the flats. If someone was twice your size and had twice the FTP then that’d be more even and equivalent watts per kg.

Have a look at the bell curve of cyclists here: https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/the-bell-curve-of-cylists-how-fast-are-the-average-tr-users/5840/124?u=johnnyvee and you can see where you fit in and where you may like to be.

#18

I haven’t read the other replies so may repeat some stuff. A lower position generally can lower power from what I’ve seen. Your hips are rotated differently and you’re utilizing different muscles as a result, plus being lower tends to raise my HR and make breathing a bit more labored. It used to be worse but it does get better.

You can run a fairly flat (handlebars and saddle level) position on the emonda with some fit adjustments and I did this initially 4 years ago because it was comfortable. Over time you’ll be able to go lower, so just focus on comfort for now, remember that road bikes are generally longer than mountain bikes too so it does stretch you a bit forward

As far as power goes, we’re you using a real power meter before or some kind of virtual power? FTP tests can be weird if you’re nervous or anxious about it, at least they are for me, I had a time when I was so hype for a test I cracked at 284ftp, knew it was a fluke and tested the next day at 290 once I calmed down

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#19

I went from Elite Volano with Misuro B+ to Elite Quick-Motion with Garmin Vector 3(pair, used) and guess what. 217 -> 189 drop with ramp test :scream: Bike is same. Position might different as I went from fixed direct drive trainer to resistance roller. Life happens for last two weeks but this is huge drop anyway. I was quite anxious about this test as this is my first time to perform FTP test on the roller. Forgot to calibrate vector3 prior to this test. Calibrated yesterday with Garmin Connect.

I don’t know what to check from here. Yes I might check Volano with Vector 3 but from RPE perspective I can feel that power readings from two device would definitely different. I know all I need is consistency with current power measuring method, but since I work from home like more than half a year I cannot visit somewhere smart trainer is available to use for cross check. It’s also disturbing that this used Garmin Vector 3 was bought from aliexpress. Yet to replace battery cap.

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