Feeling EXTREMELY frustrated with AI FTP detection/plan!

TrainerRoad Software
41

@eddie

I’m not sure my “case” would agree with your assessment.

At the start of a 12-week plan, it was saying I would gain 10w in 4 weeks; 185 to 195.. That seems like a reasonable prediction to me.
After 4 weeks, that prediction actually DECREASED by 4 watts from my original FTP, based on me missing 1 workout!!!
Then, it predicts I’ll gain 14 watts in 4 weeks. Again, not unreasonable. Accept that at this point it’s looking like I’ll gain NOTHING.

Yet, I continualy increased power #'s over the course of the 8 weeks for every interval I did.

I don’t see where this would be “over-estimating” my initial FTP prediction.

42

Hey @eddie , not sure if your reply was directed at me but I’m very interested in hearing any input that you or others have both on the bugs as well as my training in general. I’m putting in the time and sweat and want to make sure I’m doing everything right.

43

I feel like I’m in the same boat as well with the new AIFTP calculation. Last week in my Wednesday night MTB race, for the 1 hour duration, I had 12 watt normalized power PR for the past 6 weeks. All my rides for the past few weeks have been outside, I will admit that I haven’t nailed the workouts so I am not expecting much of an improvement, but I’m also not expecting another decrease after this block.

AIFTP was showing a 6 watt improvement until I completed last Friday’s VO2 max workout, it recalculated to show 2 watt decrease.

44

Ok, thanks for the clarification. As long the AIFTP Detection is working, I am fine with that.
What makes me wonder is, that on the indoor workouts my AiFTP increased from January to April about 22W. Since doing the workout mostly outsides the AiFTP will maybe increased 4W in 2 months (19 days to go).
Maybe the progression was too high in the beginning and the fitness gains must now be stabilised.

45

Yeah, it goes for anyone! :grinning_face:

Is it cool to share your training details here in this thread?

46

14 watts in four weeks is a pretty big jump. :thinking:

I’ll take a look. You mentioned that I’m welcome to look at your account, but can I share the details here in this thread, or would you rather chat about this via your open support ticket?

47

@eddie Absolutely! Thanks!

48

@eddie You can share in either.

49

Hi @eddie you are welcome to share my training details if you want to include me in the thread.

50

I had the same yesterday with the recovery day and the 1:30mn endurance ride

eddie 51

I’ve just taken a look at your training. :eyes:

You’re doing a great job of following your plan and being consistent with your training while following the structure of your workouts. Those are the most important parts of successful training, so keep that up. :+1:

It looks like you’re certainly running into the Outside Workout bug that’s been discussed here, which is a bummer given how well you’re training.

The good news, though, is that you are progressing! You’ve been seeing steady progress since the release of TR AI, and although you haven’t accepted a recent FTP Detection, I looked at the backend just now, and we currently think your FTP is a couple of percent higher than it is now.

I know it’s hard to see these massive gains laid out in front of you just to see them slowly disappear, but you’re making the progress that we’d expect to see, so that means that your training is working. :white_check_mark:

As for the difficulty of your workouts, it’s always okay to go a bit above the prescribed power targets when riding outside if that’s what it takes to get you into the right zone. If you’re finding that your hard workouts aren’t hard enough, feel free to push a little if you’re confident in going by RPE. Using Workout Alternates to find harder workouts is also a good option. Just make sure that your post-workout survey responses reflect the work you did, not what was prescribed.

I’ve heard from multiple TR employees who are testing this bug fix that not only are FTP Predictions better, but workout prescriptions are better too.

Again, I know how much of a bummer training can feel like when it seems like all the work you’re putting in is simply evaporating, but just keep in mind that you are progressing well. It’s not 14 watts every month, but that would be almost too good to be true. :smiling_face_with_tear:

I’m hoping this fix can ship soon. I’ll obviously be in touch as soon as I hear anything, but in the meantime, keep up the good work and try not to focus on those predictions too much. Turn them off if you need to. Whatever it takes to give your training and the results you’re seeing the feeling it deserves. :raising_hands:

1 Like
eddie 52

I’m looking at your career now.

Generally speaking, things appear to be going pretty well. Your FTP has increased steadily since the release of TR AI as well. :+1:

Are you using a different power meter when riding outside than inside? Also, are you calibrating them both as recommended by the manufacturer?

I’m seeing some discrepancies between the RPE of inside vs outside workouts. Your indoor workouts appear to be really hard (like the “Max Effort” Threshold 1.8 workout on April 7th with an IF of .81), and your outside workouts are really easy (like the ~90-minute “Moderate” Sweet Spot workout with an IF of 1.0 on April 11th).

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It seems like that might be causing some confusion on the back end, where we don’t know what to give you when workouts’ RPE varies wildly depending on whether the work is done inside vs outside.

I’m also seeing some outside rides (usually Endurance or Sweet Spot) where you aren’t really following the structure of the prescribed workout. In those cases, it’s best not to match the ride file with the prescribed workout because telling the software that you did the workout and it felt easy, moderate, hard, etc., when you didn’t do the work sends bad data that we’ll continue to use when analyzing your fitness and prescribing your upcoming workouts.

Regardless, your key sessions seem to be a bit better, and you are progressing, so that’s all good news. :raising_hands:

Let me know your thoughts on this and if you have any questions for me. :handshake:

2 Likes
53

@eddie

Thanks for the Kudos and the insight.

What about the issue of the AI prescribing the same workout, over and over for the last several weeks; Isabel & Nangpai? Is this a result of the “outside” bug, as well?

Also, the issue I mentioned where it’s pretty much always recommending a rest-day after a hard day (What about 2 day race weekends!!!)… but it gives an alternate of 30 minutes of Endurance. But then when I select the 30 min Endurance it re-calculates it and gives me 1:30 minutes of Endurance. That seems to, again, be a rather drastic change from the recommendation. Is this also part of the “outside” bug?

eddie 54

What about the issue of the AI prescribing the same workout, over and over, for the last several weeks; Isabel & Nangpai? Is this a result of the “outside” bug, as well?

Yes, I believe that this is related to the outside bug. People on the team who do their training outside have reported that this does not happen with what they’ve been recently testing. :+1:

As for that second issue with workout duration, that sounds different, but I’m not sure if that’s been reported before or not. Could you help us out by sending screenshots and more info when you come across that issue next time?

It sounds like it could be (but I’m not sure at this point) an issue or confusion around the monopoly cards that show changes/suggestions in duration, as shown below.

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Did you see something like this in that case?

eddie 55

Your case is a bit harder to look at and get a clear story, mostly because, as you alluded to, you’re not really doing a lot of structured work or following workouts closely.

It looks like the last hard workout where you followed the structure closely was in early April, over a month ago.

That drop on/after May 8th was likely from a combination of things. It likely has some tie to the outside workout bug, since that’s where you do almost all your riding, but the work you did also didn’t match the prescription from that workout, which is shown in the NP figures of your workout data.

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You have been really steadily increasing your training stress week over week, which is awesome, but you’re not doing a ton of structured work, which is how you consistently make improvements over the long haul.

Let me know if this helps, and if you have any other questions about any of this. :+1:

1 Like
56

When does an outside workout is different from the prescribed one? Very often you must ride to and back to a track where you can do the workout properly?

Is there a recommendation how to make the correct decision to match it or not?

57

It’s totally fine to ride to and from a workout area. What matters is if the “workout” part of your ride matches with the structure of the prescribed workout.

This means that you’re shooting for and coming close to or hitting the power targets for the duration of each interval and rest period.

For instance, if you have something like 4x5 at 110% with 3 minutes rest in between, a part of your ride should follow that structure. If you’re doing some intervals at 3 minutes and some at 4.5, or the power ranges from 90% to 120%, or your rest intervals are actually 5 or 6 minutes long, then you’re not following the structure of the workout.

Does that help?

58

great, many thanks

59

@eddie Does that mean that the accurate predictor for some should be no change or even a decrease in FTP after a build block? Because that’s what some people gradually drift down to as they complete the workouts.
I agree that the initial prediction is overly optimistic. That’s totally fine and hopefully will be fixed. What I’m wondering is would a build block, ostensibly designed to increase FTP, always result in a gain, even if it is only 1W, if followed perfectly.

I also acknowledge that that there has to be a plateau. All of us could not simply do build blocks for the next 10 years and have the FTP of a pro tour rider at the end of it. I presume that what will happen is failure of all workouts or even SS workouts feeling “very hard” or “all out.”

60

It’s hard to give this question a yes-or-no answer.

Yes, sometimes athletes might put plans or phases on their calendar and see predictions of little to no gain, or in some cases, a net loss in fitness.

I don’t imagine this is super common, but I’m certain it can happen. What happens between the application of a new plan and each FTP Detection day does make a massive difference, though.

There is almost always a plan that will bring some fitness gains, but, as you mentioned, it does get hard as each athlete becomes more trained.