Well, I’m a big boy…at 95kg so it’s only 4.3w/kg. Great for TTs, crits, and flat road races. Notsomuch for going uphill.
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I understand wanting to spend more TiZ. But wouldn’t reducing your FTP 10w, but spending 20 mins longer TiZ than real FTP TTE be just as likely to lead to overtraining? Would like to do some reading if there’s good info on this.
Have a look at the sweetspot progression thread. Might be a good place to start working on TTE 
Hmm maybe but it you are working more aerobicaly so recovery is better. And also you calculate brakes into equation so 1x60 is not the same as 3x20 with 5 min brakes when it comes to impact to your body. And basically if you want to improve anything you have to push it so if your TTE is 45 min if you do not push longer it will probably not improve too much. I do no say that everybody should do 3x per week 4x20 when their tte is 40 minutes but workouts that push it beyond your limits are probably needed. This no different than these long Z2 rides that push your boundaries.
My short experience is only personal so rather anecdotal but there is a reason many people struggle with doing sustained workouts as there is not many workouts in the plans that push the duration too much.
Here is the scientific info that comes with this:
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I don’t have any good reading for you (for good listening though, Kolie talks about extending TiZ on the Empirical Cycling podcast), but I do have yet another anecdote to share.
This is actually something I found super interesting. With my FTP set roughly right, doing threshold work is easier until it’s not, and that point seems to come roughly at TTE even with intervals and breaks.
Like say my TTE is 50 minutes. In doing 3x20 with say 5 minute rests, I would experience a sudden and marked increase in RPE about halfway through the last interval! My HR data would usually reflect this too, it would sort of hold within a steady band until that point, and then suddenly start drifting upwards more and more. Obviously there can be confounding factors there with HR - heat/dehydration, caffeine intake, etc, but it was a fairly consistent pattern across many weeks.
I don’t know if this is the same for everyone to be honest. But it sort of makes sense to me with my limited understanding of the physiology: (1) TTE@FTP is linked to glycogen storage, (2) different fibre types can be more efficient at storing and using glycogen, and (3) you can’t rebuild glycogen stores in a matter of minutes during the recovery intervals, it can actually take days to fully rebuild.
Anyway, that point of inflection in RPE is basically where I had to start “digging” to finish the interval. Sometimes I’d do one more after that if it wasn’t too long, like say TTE was 55 minutes, I might do 4x20, with slightly longer rest before the final interval. But I also took into account what my training was going to be for the next day when deciding if I’d push through for one more or not.
But digging to go beyond your current TTE is kind of the point here. You’re recruiting less efficient muscle fibres and training them to be more efficient. It’s a slightly different feeling, but not too dissimilar RPE to doing long slightly supra-threshold intervals.
So yeah, whilst I’m sure it’s possible to overtrain by doing too much TiZ and not recovering, that’s true regardless of FTP accuracy. You’ll be able to get much better training if your FTP is set correctly though. And the mechanisms are different, going over FTP changes the metabolic demands (increased lactate production and glycolysis I think?), going longer sub-FTP doesn’t change the metabolic demands, you just start using and thus training your muscle fibres to be more efficient.
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As someone relatively new to the ramp test protocol, there are some alarm bells going off here. Per those tests, my FTP is 275. I know for a fact I can’t sustain that number for more than about 30-35 minutes. I have yet to do a 1 hour max effort on the trainer, but from outdoor rides my best 1 hour average is c.245 (and while not riding for a number, that was part of a flat out effort for about 1hr 5 mins).
I also know that I seem to be stronger than my FTP would suggest at 3-5 minute climbs, but struggle more than my FTP would suggest on long, sustained drags into the wind and similar. This chimes in with what was mentioned above at actually training at/over threshold when you’re supposed to be working at sweetspot.
Hmm… 
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I spent two seasons doing TR first and made great gains. I wouldn’t sweat it too much - just train consistently. Plenty of people here have done great on the TR plans.
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Sounds about right. What is the duration of your races? Do you want to race crits, cross, or xc? If so, you’re fine. Basically what @Brennus has posted.
If you’re goals are longer, like 100km or longer, etc., all the second guessing and discussion about FTP might be worthwhile.
I think this is crucial point. Training above FTP (because you have overestimated FTP) will have different effects than training at or below FTP. Even if you can complete all of your workouts and avoid overtraining or burnout, this ultimately limits your forward progress, even if you initially improve.
I believe it was Jack Daniels who said that you have to earn the right to train faster by first showing that you can race faster. The same thinking applies here: you have to earn the right to train harder by first showing that you’re fit enough to do so, i.e., that your FTP is really your FTP.
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That’s what happens to me too, every time I start approaching my TTE my RPE goes up.
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Just got around to listening to the latest Empirical Cycling podcast, and lo and behold there’s a discussion of what happens when TTE is reached and what happens when you increase it @ 56m45s to about 1h02m. Highly recommend giving it a listen!
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Thanks @jarsson and @chidlow, I like this methodology too, and am very much subscribed to sub-FTP intervals (95-97%) - it’s helped my FTP a little and TTE/muscle endurance seem to have improved a fair bit. I’ve listened to all of Kolie’s podcasts apart from the very latest, which sounds good (and timely).
To an extent I was playing devil’s advocate as I think it’s good to challenge my own methods and biases now and then. Like @jarsson said, long Z2 is the same basic principle of improving through time-based overload, which most people do with success. In threshold we need to tread a little more carefully of course!
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Definitely familiar with that. In my last threshold block I did, I vividly remember getting to minute 50 of 75 (5x15), and feeling that inflection point (not quite pain, but definitely not pleasant). Very similar with Z2 after 3 hours or so for me.
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I was a CX rider back in my younger days.
I’m now training for the Tour of Flanders (240km) so there may be an issue 
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You are an animal… in the most desirable way possible. Get that 400.
I rode another virtual climb last night (Bealach-na-Ba) - I can maintain a higher % of my FTP when I’m forced to on a climb 
It wasn’t quite an hour (54:29) but I averaged 97% Ftp
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So what’s the point of ftp?
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My relatively uninformed opinion is that it is one measurement of fitness. And the ramp test (though I know that’s not what you asked) is a relatively quick and easy way to test it, giving feedback on your training.
Obviously there are limitations to using just one measure of fitness and limitations also of a ramp test.
You’ll have to make your own decisions on how useful the number is to you and how you want to determine it. That’s my take-away anyhow.
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