women were not allowed to do sports the same way men are, until fairly recently.
There were no incentive in the past for a woman like Jenner to transition. There were probably no decathlon for woman back then (maybe not even now). Plus the stigmas and society norms of the era.
Agree, this all very interesting topic.
There clearly is no answer that makes everyone happy, that’s for sure.
I also see sports as segregated by sex, not gender, due to the physical sex differences.
In cases like the news article in CT, a single transgender girl in track could easily make a state championship out of reach for every female athlete in the state. That is no small thing.
So a few questions….
What size fields were they racing in before they transitioned?
What categories were they racing before they transitioned / what are they racing now?
As I said, I am completely sympathetic to the complaints of those impacted by such results. I don’t know that those complaints outweigh what could be, and is, perceived by many as a greater good.
Also as noted, there is no clean answer here,someone, somewhere ends up being an aggrieved party.
But, to the best of my knowledge, these incidents are still exceedingly rare.
yeah I dunno, just started seeing her race results this year. And this year I’m not racing, and haven’t been to those races. Just riding with some that do, and getting an earful.
No, Jenner is not an excellent case study because they did not compete as a woman, ever.
You can hypothesize about what may have occurred, but it isn’t a “case study”.
Piggybacking on an earlier comment, I wonder what cis female potential is, with the smaller participation numbers, is it possible the most potential isn’t even participating in athletics? And if that’s the case, what would the gap be between them transwomen in general? I think in a lot of instances, even purely cis gendered competition, there’s a lot of big fish in a small pond going on often that maybe wouldn’t happen with greater participation
Jenner is an excellent case study because Jenner competed as an elite male athlete. If Jenner is a female now, Jenner was always a female. She just previously identified as male.
One thing is for sure - they didn’t foresee that people of the future would (I think correctly) have the right to change their label from man to woman and vice versa making the label unsuitable to be used as a category to ensure fairness in sports.
That is not what a “case study” entails……you are talking about hypothesis.
Semantics, perhaps, but an important distinction.
I think he say there no case to study, because his transition didn’t affect the sport he participated.
Now, if he were going to try out for the Olympics NOW and made the US team and even won a medal, then we would have a case study.
I think, even back then, many knew.
It just too many stigmas, lack of education and not a quick way to transmit information.
Just think how quick things have move in the last 25 years!
People are more aware and educated now.
Hopefully in 30 -40 years things will get sorted out, and we will all laugh on how silly all of this was!
Seems like there is one thing most here agree on: simply using Testosterone levels to determine who is or isn’t man or woman enough to compete with who is wrong.
What I find most discouraging is that some women can’t compete because they fall outside of these ranges which were (correct me if I’m wrong) put in place to make sports more inclusive for trans athletes. Some women fall outside of the default values of their gender, whether they were born as men and transitioned, or they are just more masculine females, but those more masculine females are now getting disparate treatment as a result
Perhaps politics changed and Jenner (if young) could compete today but would have been prohibited from competing as female in her athlete career (almost surely).
However, according to today’s politics, since Jenner was female then (is now and always was), Jenner is a good comparison to females in the same athletic era.
It was only the rules prohibiting Jenner from competing as female back them - not because Jenner was male then and is female today. Therefore Jenner is an excellent example to use.
Another point,
There is no limit for men.
There were a study on some nordic person who made a ton of records on some xcontry snow thing (sorry not familiar with winter sports).
His T level were though the roof!
point is, men are not handicapped because of genetics. Some cis woman are!
If this stays civil (which it looks like so far which is another reason why this is such a good forum) it could be good to have Molly Cameron as a podcast guest for TR. She’s competed in both fields due to rules and prior to transitioning, I listened to her on Ian Boswell’s podcast and was very interesting.
Sure. For how politics and public eye see the transitioning of athletes and how the IOC has change the rules to be more inclusive. But this is not the 80s.
But until we have a world class male athlete transitioning to female and then competing and winning, its all guesses.
An example of what I am talking.
He trained with his male advantage and made the Olympics and won.
Maybe if he would have been allowed to transition to female without major repercussions (socially mostly) he would not even had competed at high level.
Point is there are way to many variables when it come to this.
To have a case study, you would need a better example, like the one i mentioned.
You keep missing the point and I lack the perseverance to continue to explain it again.
I understand what you’re saying. You are saying, you need an actual example of a transitioned athlete to be used as a case study, not an actual trans person who competed in only one gendered field opposite of their true gender.
I bring up Jenner because we typically see (if any) mediocre men become elite female athletes when they transition. We never have seen a women transition to male and become elite in the male field.
Jenner is an example of an elite competitor in the male field (the Olympic champion in arguably the most athletic event - decathlon). With today’s rules, Jenner could have competed in the female field. It’s a pretty clear case that it is not fair lol
The problem I personally see when folks propose to let trans compete in their own division, is that it’s essentially an exclusionary tactic. Because seriously, given how few trans athletes there really are in each state, you couldn’t even field an entire team for a team sport, for example. And for individual stuff like cycling or running, are people really expecting a field of 2 or 3.
Yes, and also women’s sports are already underfunded and undersupported. It is true that most people are regular XX or XY folks, i.e. not intersex and no differences in sex development, and it is also true that most people are not trans. So, your third category is going to be extremely small. Will athletes and teams in this category be able to attract a fair share of sponsorship dollars on top of that? I would guess it would be an uphill battle.