totally. And I need to totally own for myself that my perception has shifted due to having a gender nonconforming kid, and in trying to better understand him opening myself to issues in the trans/nonbinary community. My son identifies as male, but I don’t know if that’ll always be the case, so this always has the potential to strike really close to home. And to be honest, a number of years ago before kids I probably leaned the other way (more of ‘we don’t know what the science really says and so it might not be fair’). Our perspectives definitely change to meet our own needs
There was a suggestion that this was the case for Laurel Hubbard, but it seems she had a long break from competition (stopped 2001, restarted 2017), so this doesn’t give a clear before/after difference to look at.
That said, she took 15ish years off (training time off not listed), is now winning most of the international competitions she enters (also 2nd at world champs), and goes to the Olympics, which is a significant accomplishment in itself. I have no idea if she could have competed at this level in the men’s field had she not transitioned, as it seems she only competed for a short time as an adult. It’s possible that she could have been successful under those circumstances as well.
I have a feeling that her example will be used to make all kinds of really strong statements one way or the other on this issue, however I don’t think it lends itself to firm conclusions.
this is the example i was thinking of trans girls cleaning the field.
It was not NJ but CT.
Its a difficult situation for them and their peers…
Yeah, I think one thing that can be an issue with amateur levels in particular is there isn’t as much of a ‘validation’ process (I’m not super up with the olympic prototocols, but I understand there’s a certain transition period after which testosterone is at least somewhat reduced, as well as a lot more general scrutiny.)
In amateur competitions you can pretty much turn up on the same day and compete, which I think can potentially be an issue- though one that I think is most easily addressed with a definitive ‘open’ category, as I’m not sure there’s a lot of other ways to deal with that productively at present.
Jen Wagner-Assali spoke out shortly after losing a World Champion Track Race to Veronica Ivy, formerly Rachel McKinnon, then was attacked for it online.
There have been many different situations where female track athletes have gave their opinions and it seems to typically get silenced pretty fast.
Not to mention the time where female MMA fighters didn’t want to fight a transgender individual after they broke a woman’s skull.
For the record I personally don’t care how one wants to be identified. If it makes them feel more like their true selves I will support them as best I can. I wish there was a way for Transgender individuals to truly compete on a relatively fair playing field. Would people be opposed to the idea of making the Male side an ‘Open Category’?
The amount of people who will transition and become Olympic athletes, I think, its very small. Maybe in the future someone might try to take advantage of the rules to cheat, but I think it will take a lot of time to get there.
The way I see it is that most athletes who transition are not exceptional athletes, but they are still very good. They will feel not included in non woman specific event. Again Fairness vs Inclusivity.
Most transgender woman want inclusion, and many world class athletes cis woman seem to prefer fairness.
Could another explanation be that this person is a well trained cyclist that has never formally raced before so they had to start in Cat 4/5? I am assuming that since they had recently transitioned, they would be entering a women’s race as a cat 4/5 since they wouldn’t have a race record as a female but how many times have you seen that in both men’s and women’s fields where you get a strong cyclist (mountain biker or triathlete with high W/kg) who has to start at the bottom and they destroy the field.
Definitely. I don’t think this is or will be a common occurrence, so “trans-woman smashes local competition” is kind of a boogey-man at this point, but it could perhaps become a sticky point.
I am in no way suggesting that people will transition in order to win. I think the number of people who do that will be very, very small. I have not seen any evidence of that happening yet.
What I am saying, is that transgender women who happen to be athletes have an advantage.
The news story you posted above is an example of this. When two biological males go 1-2 in the HS state championships I think this is a problem. The article did not mention any kind of hormone limits, so in this case there may be absolutely no biological difference between these trans women athletes and male athletes.
The other slippery slope (don’t make this political, it isn’t) is as we try and make things more inclusive and lower/remove the barriers for entry for trans athletes, it could make it much easier for someone like me to simply compete with women based on nothing more than my gender self identity, where any testing or requirements could be decried as transphobic and exclusionary, so I do think it’s important to not completely disregard fairness in the pursuit of inclusion. In the current environment, I don’t think men are transitioning to women to win in sports because it’s a long and complex and painful process but if it becomes as simple as “compete with who you identify as”, I bet there’s going to be a lot more men taking advantage of it either to win, or just to make a mockery of the entire situation. Remember Heather Swanson from South Park?
I wonder what the testosterone levels were?
I must admit I’m pretty torn on this subject.
From a moral standpoint I think its good that transgender people can compete with whoever they feel comfortable with but I’m not convinced that rules based on reducing testosterone levels are enough to ensure they are competing on a level playing field. I think that the science suggests that having a y chromosome during puberty causes permanent physiological changes that drive performance enhancement.
I don’t know what the answer is. It’s a shame that sport is segregated by gender. If I were to set it up from scratch now purely for fairness then I would take gender out of it and just have xy and xx categories - no mention of men or women. Take gender and gender identity out of the equation.
And of couse I have this nagging suspicion that as a male it might be that non of this is any of my business; but I hope that cis women who do have concerns feel that they are able to raise them without being called transphobic.
I think we could all agree that Bruce Jenner, Men’s Olympic decathlon gold medalist 1976, would have won the women’s decathlon in that given year with relative ease (compare Jenner’s PR or performance records for that event to those of the female winner). Jenner is now a female so an excellent case study
Sex segregation in sports (at high levels) is about fairness of competition. That is the whole point of it. Even in the video Dylan mentions that fairness is the one of the chief goals of the Olympic committee.
In the news article you posted above, it is clear that the CT state laws prioritize inclusion over fairness. What bothers me is that many people argue for this level of inclusion while denying the negative consequences of it.
Test is used in every sport for any gender as a PED. It’s one of the easiest to find, to hide, and it’s wildly effective.
I am almost certain, that this will never be the case.
You can self identity all you want. But that will not open the doors for any woman sports. I think everyone agrees that there is a need for a standard, but they dont agree on what that standard should looks like
Many people (including myself) wrestle with the question of fairness and inclusion.
I want to say I want inclusion, but at the same time I dont find fair, my daughters not winning something because a trans girl (who may or may not be on T suppression meds) destroyed the field.
On one hand, I get that she want to feel included in the woman field since thats what she probably is, in the other she need to understand that its more complicated than her feeling, specially when she is putting herself and her feeling disregarding the rest of the field. (as you see, complicated feelings)
You got 2 out of 3 right. It is not easy for top level athletes to hide. They can be tested at any given time and multiple times in a month if the testing body chooses. It also takes weeks for it to clear out of the system without any additional help.
Is it really separated by gender, or by biological sex? Was the independence of gender/sex even acknowledged at the time these distinctions were made? In 1920 did people think there was a difference between the “Men’s 100 meter” and “male 100 meter” competition?
I’d be interested in a historical analysis of this.