I work with a lot of trans people in my profession (medicine), and will simply say that the idea that someone would go through the extremely challenging process of transitioning in a world openly hostile (and dangerous!) to them just to succeed as an athlete is…well, it’s something. Willing to bet that there are virtually no trans athletes who have undergone transition because they thought it would give them a competitive advantage, and I think it’s pretty vital to the conversation that we remember that when discussing the issue.
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I haven’t followed the details of this, but I don’t think we need to wait for a gold medal winner to have evidence that the current testosterone standards are inadequate to create a level and fair competition. If athlete X is a 80th percentile male athletes, then transitions, and competes in women’s events in the 95th percentile then this seems to be a good indication that she has a relative advantage compared to her female competitors.
That was my point.
I’m suggesting that the uproar will be more widespread if/when she wins.
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Are you talking full transition, or just the necessary to be allowed to compete as a transgender woman.
the IOC doesn’t require any kind of surgery to let transgender woman to compete. As long as they have the right T levels they are good to go.
Not arguing that the process is difficult, including the social stigmas that comes with it.
But we are talking of world where a nation made a lab, then made a hole in the lab so they could swap sample of people doping, so they could win the Olympics. So, although is apples to oranges, some people would go to extremes for “glory”
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Is the doping test out there that can tell the difference between PED taken testosterone and natural testosterone?
Thinking in the case of the Namibian 400 m runners in the olympics, where this testosterone level of 5 nmol is getting conflate between, intersex, trans athletes and actual dopers.
If your above 5 nmol, and not trans, would you need to prove you are intersex to compete?
There is a ton a grey area here
I think the comparisons to a state-sponsored cheating apparatus are not particularly germane. That’s a veritable apple orchard.
And I’m not really talking about the specifics of a person’s transition, either. I just think that the risk of someone “transitioning to cheat” is so small, and so aberrant, that it shouldn’t figure into a conversation about “fairness vs inclusiveness.” It’s almost always deployed as a bad faith strawman. Not saying that anyone here is doing that, it’s just something I’ve seen and heard before when this topic comes up.
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That’s definitely a part of it, but I think it missed the larger context of my point, and I wouldn’t say it’s a great example- I doubt many Olympic athletes are going to respond to a highly divisive political question with no preparation and with the eyes of the world on them, directly after one of the most stressful times in their lives. That’s a very different situation to articulating a fully formed opinion on the internet with essentially no consequences and the opportunity to endlessly justify and debate your opinion with relative anonymity.
What I am referring to more specifically with that statement is that typically the discussions I see about women’s sport are, in my experience, largely dominated to by men- and while I’m sure it’s with good intentions, reiterating the position of a few women that support your opinion if it represented women, or basing your opinions on what you think is right for them rather than actually listening to their perspectives and experiences can miss a lot of nuance and potentially be a lot less helpful as a result.
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Not to my knowledge, and it gets particularly fuzzy as things like birth control and pregnancy can dramatically affect naturally occurring testosterone levels, so the allowable thresholds are pretty lenient for women.
I remembered this article that went up a few months ago where even women competing against some of the trans athletes are being silenced which isn’t right IMO (not sure how “right” or “left” Reuters is as a source but this is coming from the athletes themselves)
has there been a case where this occurred?
I have found lots of good information on this subject from Schuyler Bailar, a Trans athlete that competed in Men’s NCAA D1 swimming. Schuyler has a great breakdown of these issues through a lenses that we don’t always get to look through. Check it out here: https://pinkmantaray.com/transathlete
The person I rode with, just prior to the pandemic, was just starting to transition. She literally changed Strava from man to woman about a month after I started following her. She wouldn’t have been competitive in local men’s fields. Now she has transitioned and her are the results so far this year:
I have no skin in the game, just saying those that do flip-flipped on their opinion.
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perhaps not totally germane, but I often think about the distribution of ftp/vo2/whatever in cycling. I’m about as average as one can get as far as ftp and w/kg, but I don’t necessarily think it’s unfair for genetic winners get to come and mop the field in a 4/5 race, it just kind of comes with the territory. Of course, I’m sure folks view this as a ‘fair’ advantage because of random selection and all that, but I do think about it in relation to the trans women debates.
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but look at the participation in those races, I think when you’ve got a small number of competitors stuff like that is going to happen. Maybe in larger women’s fields where more tactics come into play maybe there wouldn’t such a run in results
“ya buts” don’t seem to matter to those impacted. They went from “inclusion!” to “unfair!”
So far, this has been a very civil conversation about this issue.
Please don’t bring political left/right into this. Otherwise it might actually turn into a political conversation which WILL not end well, as we all probably know.
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Apologies, definitely don’t want to turn it into that, but mainly to highlight how people shift their positions somewhat selfishly at times
Yup, triggers flipped. Clean that up NOW or this is over.
This is the type of garbage that will kill this topic, so check that immediately.
I kind of don’t have a problem with the athletes competing together up to a National level until there’s either Prize Money, or International/Olympic selection at stake where I personally think they should be ineligible.
I think this is a reasonable take. I’m not a elite racing woman (just an enthusiastic amateur), but it would be a little frustrating if I lost out on some prize money at a local race to someone who was enjoying the benefits of male anatomical advantages after transitioning later in their life. I could live with it, but it certainly seems damaging to cis-women who, through no fault of their own, are competing in an “open” category when they’re in a “women’s” category.
To be clear, this is an incredibly nuanced discussion and I’m happy to learn other perspectives. I definitely understand the damage that can be caused to young people in particular as they are defining their gender identity by excluding them from sports where they can learn a lot of physical and life skills.
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Absolutely. People tend to change opinion when the situation affect them directly.
In this case, a very small field of cis woman got the short end of a stick when a trans woman start showing up. And with that they were shown how fairness and inclusivity don’t play well right now in sports.