@Bioteknik I know this response is old but I’ve been trying to parse this since you posted.
Specifically this ^^^^^^
This is the section of the TTS podcast that reminded me:
(Can we move the lactate threshold independently from the critical power?)
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I’m not sure the two are the same question, as i was wondering if hr drifted upwards at your threshold when improving fractional utilization.
I think real world data agrees with mader and heck’s model, in that the higher percent Cp is of vo2max, it brings lt1 along for the ride and as burnley suggests, becomes more compressed. Its basically a flatter pd curve.
Some have suggested either we all have the same gap between lt1 and Cp, or that they can move independently. There’s anecdotal evidence of improving lt1 without Cp, but only for individuals who don’t have a flat baseline so they really dont have a first threshold.
I see now, you’re right. Not same question.
This makes a statement that a coach said once make a bit more sense now. He said (to someone else): “we don’t really have a threshold for you [meaning lower one], we need to establish it” (emphasis mine). I thought “what the heck does establish it mean? Don’t we just have it”.
Seems like it was his way of saying do some training and then hopefully see a place where it inflects. Make it easier to spot.
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Part 2 of Scientific Triathlon’s Mark Burnley podcast is coming next week:
Next week we have part 2 of the interview with Dr Burnley, and topics covered include VLaMax, Polarised training and whether it is or isn’t optimal for endurance athletes, and fatigue and novel ways of measuring it.
Haven’t listened yet.
Tnx for link to the Burnley TTS pod. It was a good listen. Seems like a pragmatic fellow.
I’m going to go stare at my best data sets as he prompted a few thoughts…
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I wish the sports science field would unify around what they call these thresholds. The British way to call them LT and CP throws me every time, especially “Lactate Threshold” for the first threshold.
I personally like Aerobic Threshold. LT1/LT2 is also very clear.
Seiler usually calls it the “first lactate turnpoint”.
I’m ok with FTP, MLSS, or CP.
I’m reading Skiba’s book now. He uses the British language and I’m constantly having to translate. I even think he occasionally writes “lactate threshold” a few times when he means the second threshold.
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Totally agree. I was watching a Youtube video sometime ago and thinking “what is this guy on about?” until it dawned on me that he was actually talking about LT1 and not LT2 when he was referring to the lactate threshold.
I’ve recently seen references to LT1 in WKO5 webinars from Cusick. For you WKO5 users, how is it determined in WKO?
(sorry if this is upthread already…point it out if so and I’ll dig in)
which webinar? I did a quick search of charts and nothing obvious came up, or I chose poor search terms.
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58:05 he gives a teaser, paraphrasing “we are currently doing hundreds of lab tests in Europe, working on new LT1 modeling system, which we hope to release soon, early results promising”
and then he concludes with “I estimate LT1, we’ll get into that later”
Interesting, so far WKO has always stated:
LT1 & LT2 typically track together as metabolic fitness increases / decreases.
The added complexity of maintaining two such marker is not worth the small
amount (if any) additional information it supplies
And they’ve lumped everything <MLSS/LT2 into the stamina metric
Yep, and I couldn’t find my Spock Fascinating meme fast enough. So I’ll just settle for this comment: the world is changing 
I’m cautiously optimistic. I was told it didn’t exist. LOL
Maybe that’s how they determined it doesn’t exist.
^^^ joke ^^^
Could just be YAGNI.
Early base he looks at classic EF increases and cardiac drift. Then he looks approximate power output at LT1-HR and FTP-HR (red and green at lower right of chart). Its possible to track per workout as in that chart above, but uses too much CPU to track across a season or last 90 days.
Maybe. “Until we can completely validate it we won’t release it”
Sometimes you aren’t happy with a model because it carries too many caveats - it isn’t good for generalized / unsupervised use. So the model may work great for one athlete, but falls down with another. Or only if the athlete is doing a lot of the same training, for example, mostly steady endurance rides. Someone would need to ask on FB group, or email Tim and ask.
I know all that. I watched the video. I’m asking about LT1.
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Reminds me of the BSX sensor. Lt2 could be predicted pretty well, Lt1 not really. They never delivered on the Lt1 promise. And then it died. And I lost my faith in wearables
No Moxy for you then? (rhetorical)
Sorry I haven’t watched those WKO webinars, so I’m putting on my captain obvious hat and regurgitating what Tim said.
Tracking movement of LT1 using soft estimation:
- “lots of ways to estimate LT1”
- “track power at HR approximation”
- “long term trend, a couple of micro-cycles, of that number improving, I feel reasonably confident that we are moving LT1 to the right”
- “that’s how you use soft data”
Personally, for the last couple years I’ve been tracking trends in power at 140bpm:
- 19-20 season it was 171W average power
- 20-21 season it was 180W
- last 90 days its was 185W
- last 4 weeks its was 188W
- last night it was 198W average / 202W normalized for 130 minutes
Here is a snippet of the chart:
(max fractional utilization for this season was 87.9% woo hoo!)
And season high modeled and field tested ftp of those seasons has been 265-275 ish. My zone2 HR tops out around 142bpm, and 140bpm is what I can consistently target, week in week out, for second half of the 70-130 minute interval on steady state endurance rides.
In WKO there are aerobic reports, one example is the Aerobic Power Report Cycling tracks power at 150bpm, I’ve modified all of my reports that use 150bpm to use 140bpm which is my proxy for LT1. Because for me, 150bpm is the top of tempo around 88-90% FTP.
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I know. All good.
I was waiting for the “such and such may or may not” list from above. We gotta keep that going.
Also, for what it’s worth, I have found value in combining TIS w/ TSS the last year or little more. Gives context to load. Crude (and unrelated to LT1), but better than nothing.