I think this is a great point. All my training/riding is outdoors. 2-4hrs of Z2 with constantly changing scenery still requires some discipline but is relatively easy mentally. In my case it’s sometimes a little difficult physically because of the terrain where I live. But I also remember what some have said elsewhere: “nothing magical happens” at the zone borders that suddenly invalidates the work you are doing. If I end up doing more Z3/Z4/whatever in a Z2 ride I don’t stress. I just need to remember that the harder I go the more recovery I need, so if I have a ride planned the next day it may suffer.
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One of the reasons for this (apparently, I’m quoting from my memory here) is that some endurance adaptations only occur at 2hr+ riding at below the LT1 threshold, ie. those aerobic endurance rides. So, do a 4hr ride on the weekend and you now have only 4hrs left. To get the most adaption in that time, you do hard intervals - or maybe a 2hr ride on one day, and 2x 60min interval sessions on 2 other days. 4 days of riding in a week with 2 days endurance and 2 days of hard intervals.
But like Chad says, lots of ways to skin a cat 
Agree with this. The POL model seems to ‘need’ a proper long ride to work, since as you say with a z2 (in TR power zones) benefits really.only become apparent after couple hours…
However for me I train about 8 hours a week (split between 3 runs and 3 rides) over 6 days…I can train 6 days out of 7 BUT only for a max of 75-90 mins per day.
I have no time (or inclination) to do multi hour rides away from my family etc.
great point, I agree, and why I keep tuning into this ‘debate’ – “can we identify the circumstances under which one is more appropriate than the other?” - FasTalk has had many guests on (this is Trevor Connor’s show) that take issue with polarized for time-crunched athletes and I’m never fully satisfied with the discussion, they just don’t address it enough.
On this point you make, " IIRC correctly after a second observational study that showed cyclists spending much of the year in what he thought was the “grey zone,” he acknowledged that it’s more complicated and that there seem to be differences across sports," I’d love to see that post or reference where he’s talking about this-- if you have a link please share, thanks!
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Your memory is failing you. 
There are no adaptations that result only from exercising for long durations at low intensities. (Whether they are or are not maximized that way is another question.)
One thing people seem to overlook is that for an individual muscle fiber, there really is no such thing as “low intensity exercise”. Either the fiber is not contracting at all, or it is being activated dozens of times per second.
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word, i’ll see if i can find something. This might have just been something i heard on a podcast with him describing his current work and thinking or from twitter. I.e., not an official update to the intensity distribution paper of a few years back.
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THis is exactly what i mean about why the argument over “which is better” is kinda dumb. Like if you are working out on a trainer, especially in the early season when you are less trained, the best thing to do might be to be slamming tempo and sweetspot days, and you can probably do this and keep getting gains doing it for far more than 20% of your sessions.
Then you plateau, and you need to further intensify. In order to support that intensity and recover well enough to execute it, you need to have a more well-defined split between easy and hard days, with easy days easier and hard days much harder. And so you’re basically doing POL.
Then why even ask, which is better? We’re doing both and they both have their place.
+1. I ride in Seattle where it rains pretty much constantly. My (otherwise fantastic) ShakeDry jacket does not have pockets or easy access to jersey pockets, especially when wearing waterproof gloves. So, the top tube bag is awesome.
I have a Mag tank, which is so fast to use. Mag-Tank™ - Cockpit | Revelate Designs LLC
Just listening now and it does sound like Keegan could be doing polarised training. At a “glance” and not enough information to know but does sound like he could be 
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Can you say what adaptations specifically?
And if the adaptations come from a training stimulus to fatigued legs, how about starting the ride with vo2 max intervals, or a short hard run, then settle into a much shorter endurance effort ride?
@Jonathan I’m a bit late to this podcast but I’d suggest adding;
- 38:58 What phase to include (and how to balance) strength training
It’s a really good 15 minute section on lifting with other training imo, and @chad ’s point about sweet spot base not being easy training. I’m trying to blend 5x5 weight training with base at the moment, and settled on Olympic Tri MV Build.
It would be good if the podcasts were clearer on the types of strength training too when being discusssed because they all are really quite different in terms of stress and adaptations; body weight exercises, high rep low weight and high weight low rep. Certainly when I’m doing 3days per week 5x5 near my heaviest weights those are Hard days, and naturally hard to balance with TR plans, but a maintenance level weight 5x3 twice per week is a totally different story and easier to include with MV plans.
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No sorry. I’m not an expert and was quoting from memory and someone above has already said my memory is failing me I will try and find the YouTube vids where I heard it mentioned.
There’s nothing wrong with doing intervals and endurance on the same ride (on the podcast Keegan was saying he does 30/30s every hour on an endurance ride). All my riding is outdoors so that’s what I have to do. It’s 30min ride to one of the Mt where I do climbing repeats and 1Hr ride to one with a Cat3 climb. I ride there at Zone2, spend 30-60mins doing climbing repeats, then ride home. The ride home I tend to just go as hard as I feel like since my hard work has been done. This morning I did 3 repeats up the Cat3 climb (knocked a minute off my best time with ~12:30 at 280W so I’m happy with that) and spent about half the ride home in Z3 and Z4 with some 500-600W sprints up some short hills.
This is one of the best posts I’ve seen on this forum. Pro cyclist - all the time in the world to train , Mr and Mrs family person - limited time, limited recovery in fact limited everything because they have so many other distractions.
There is no one way to train and you will never know which way is better because once you’ve done it one way if you then change to another method that 2nd way is affected by the first.
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On 8 hours a week doing polarisation is going to see your CTL plummet and there’s not a chance you’re going to get fitter. Do I know this for 100%? No I don’t but everything I’ve learnt over the last 30 years of reading about training and sports science would suggest this is one surefire way to becoming a slower rider.
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somebody should have told dr seiler that CTL will go down, i’m sure if he’d considered that then his views woudl be different
You’ve totally missed my point but that’s fine.
And likewise you’re missing mine but that’s also fine
And then today we see this:
And I asked Keegan on Strava if that was a toaster strudel because they never looked that good in the 80s… and he told me it was homemade by Sofia Gomez Villagane : Where did you ride OUTSIDE today (2021) - #120 by bbarrera
So @Nate_Pearson can you get the recipe?
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Go on then, you go first, what is your point?
Okay fair enough.
My point is—and this is not to say that experienced practitioners in the field can’t be wrong, but—if you believe one of them is recommending a course that will in all cases make an athlete slower and less fit, then I would suggest as a first step you examine what unstated premises you might be relying on. Specifically here, probably an assumed rigidity of application and use case.
I apologize for the sarcasm though, that was not appropriate or helpful.
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