It was a 50k TT. That’s why I brought it up as a reference point.
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My new TR AIFTP is close to my all time best 20min power output - I think that’s too high - but I don’t use my FTP for pacing and I’m not bothered about using my TR FTP in other contexts.
What I’m bothered about is that my workouts feel like they serve their intended purpose and at this FTP it seems like they are close to not doing.
I’ve realized that I’m particularly fond of over-unders and I want them to feel right - there is nothing more satisfying than feeling yourself recover on the “unders” and seeing that you are at the same power the that “overs” were a few month ago 
We can argue about definitions of FTP - I’ve realized that my personal definition of a correct FTP is that it’s the “FTP setting required to make a TrainerRoad level 5 over-under workout very hard”.
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Since it sounds like you’ve already worked with others on the team during beta regarding this same situation, I’ll ping them to take a look, as I’m not sure what was done or discussed with your case in the past.
For the time being, go ahead and manually reduce your FTP from 366 to 355.
One of us will be in touch!
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I think this is all we needed to hear for now.
Thank you very much for the reply. Please feel free to post here (you, or whoever takes this on), as the others in this thread, sharing similar issues, may find the case study useful.
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This is where I’m getting lost. I don’t know how that workout could have been too hard for you, but you don’t want to rate it as “Very Hard.”
Those RPE surveys are important, and maybe if we can make some adjustments to your way of grading, you’ll end up with workouts that you enjoy more.
Is that something you’d be willing to try?
For reference, here are our definitions of each survey response. I know there are other homemade versions out there, and some athletes like to grade things in a different way, but that is an easy way to get undesirable results.
- Easy
This ride felt easy and non-taxing, requiring little effort or focus. You could repeat the ride and pass it without issue. - Moderate
This ride was somewhat comfortable but required some focus to complete. You felt a little challenged but had confidence that you could finish. If the ride had an additional set of intervals, you could complete it. - Hard
This ride required effort and focus and was challenging to complete. This will feel tough and you’ll look forward to this ride ending. If there was an additional interval, you could have done it with some focus. - Very Hard
This ride was very difficult to complete. This ride tested you. If there would have been one more interval, you wouldn’t have been able to do it. - All Out
This ride was extremely difficult. It pushed me well beyond my abilities and took a massive amount of energy and focus to complete. You’ll feel like you barely made it to the end of this ride, and that you had to pull out every mental trick in the book to finish.
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As far as I know, that should work just as it has in the past. 
Thanks! I’ve linked this thread to the rest of the team, and we’ll reach out if we need anything! 
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Nate was very clear in the latest TR podcast, that if you are consistent in your rating the AI will adapt properly. If I go by the definitions you have me, if forced I could have done another interval for the o/u workout in question, but definitely not the SS workout I did yesterday- hence why I rated it very hard and had serious doubts I would complete the workout.
My main concern is my SS workouts are threshold. And the unders on o/u, are not unders.
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I just wrote a note to our team about all of this. I’ll report back with what I find.
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My current AIFTP is pretty much my 10 minute PR that I set last August when attacking a local climb (8 to 9 minute effort) all-out.
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Thanks Eddie…. now you just need to sort out all the people who say that their FTPs are too low 
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Mine’s a 5:35 PR from attacking a segment on 22.11.2025 (two months ago).
Mine is no where near as severe as yours.
But I feel I’m a useful case study because my zones are just about sensible using an FTP that is around my measured 20min power.
Just goes to show you don’t necessarily have to revert all the way back to the FTP value you were using before to get the workouts back to where you want them.
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Mine is currently at my 10 minute PR. Funnily enough, this 10 minute PR was set in October when I was doing Nellis Wash. I looked at my heart rate on that one and was well into vo2 max territory. Absolutely brutalized me.
I did my first workout on the new plan last night (Antelope -5). Definitely felt a fair bit harder than my usual SS workouts, but last night was also a bit weird, as my heart rate wasn’t in its usual zone and everything felt a little harder. Probably due to poor pre-ride nutrition because of my work schedule yesterday. I rated it hard.
I think TR saw something in the workout it didn’t totally love with the original plan, and it has me scheduled to do it again tomorrow. It also adjusted the threshold workout down a little on Saturday to Carpathian Peak -2, which seems like a logical change to me.
I’ll keep updating as the week goes on. My early impression is we will converge to a spot that makes sense, but everything will be harder than before and my SS workouts are still going to feel more like threshold work. How the body responds remains to be seen.
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Thanks Eddie: When you chat with your team to discuss folks like myself that are ‘surviving’ in the wrong zones for SS and the unders, for o/u, this also affects higher level endurance rides.
For example: for my recovery rides next week, I have 7 hours over 4 straight days of 4.4-5.3 endurance rides. On the surface this should not be hard, but anchoring on a too high AIFTP, these are not what I would consider recovery - more in tempo. For example, James is basically a full 1.5 hours at 3.4 w/kg (I’d ideally do these in the high 2 w/kg - I would never do something this high for an easy ride - especially 7 hours over 4 days close to that level.
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Open question to those of you (us) whose FTPs are set just a bit too high, so that over/unders are over/ats. Also to any TR folks looking in.
What do we believe are the ramifications of keeping the AIFTP as given, but looking at wattages and going into the workout with a plan already in place to reduce the intensity by a set percentage for (at least) the first interval set?
So, your AIFTP is 320w, so you get prescribed o/u at 336/304. You think your actual FTP is at 300w, meaning you want 315/285, so you go into the workout and as you approach the first set you reduce the intensity by 6% to get 316/286.
I wonder how the AI would react/adapt, assuming that you nail the workout and rate it appropriately 
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Noted!
Keep in mind that workouts like James are basically maximizing your available time in Z2. James is the workout with the most stimulus in Z2 up to 90 minutes. If you have levels that warrant it and your workout is capped at 90 minutes, you’ll almost certainly see James, which can be a tough workout – sitting at 74% for 85 minutes.
With that being said, I do understand that it would be a lot harder still if your FTP is set too high, so point taken. 
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I think it will gradually learn what’s good for you, and maybe things will fall in place by the time of your next detection, but that’s quite a lot of math to do before every workout. I’d rather do it once, reducing my FTP by that percentage, and let the algo do its thing. The problem is, once you lower your FTP, it will want to bump you up on your next prediction regardless (at least that’s what I saw in beta while FTP prediction was still available with manual FTP).
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Edit (again) - I misread your question. If trying to adjust the prescribed workout just based on percentages, you end up with the right watts for it to be over/under, but you still have the wrong interval durations (too short in this case). TR is doing a nice job of making these workouts doable with the inflated FTP but reducing the interval duration. But I’d rather keep progressing the duration.
The ramifications of training with an inflated FTP -
In my opinion, the ramifications are with the type of stress you are receiving. Your over/under example is almost exactly my situation with an FTP jumping from 295 to 318. And I can accept that my physiological FTP is more like 300 right now after getting my legs underneath me a bit in the last few weeks. So, I could absolutely could handle the over/unders with my new 318 API since they were only 3x9 minute intervals with the overs only being 1’. But turning those over/unders into over/ats w/ reduced time in zone changes the intensity/duration mix even if the work/effort is similar to proper o/u’s with the lower FTP (4x12’ intervals for example). Basically, I think it’s more productive right now for me to be doing 48’ of “hard” intervals rather than 27’ of eye-bleeding intervals.
There are times to prioritize intensity over duration, but I want true over/unders at this time of the year (base). I’d rather push out duration and increase my TTE during base. The trade off is always the same with duration vs. intensity. As you bias the mix towards intensity, it creates a lot more stress and you can’t do as much productive work. More intensity in the mix makes more sense if time crunched, but I’m a big believer is prioritizing volume for folks who have the time/desire to do so.
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