Any benefit to Traditional Base vs Sweet Spot?

In short,

  1. People totally new to training and desiring a “softer” entry.
  2. People returning to cycling training from long absence or injury recovery.
  3. Top level athletes (elites and such) that need the additional time to grow their ability (assuming they maxed out on the shorter-time, higher-intensity style training) which means they would most likely need to do the High Volume option.

That is my take away from prior podcast comments and the basic plan info under the TB section here:

Traditional Base has three consecutive four-week blocks: I, II and III. Time permitting, complete each block in order.

As its name implies, the Traditional block takes the old-fashioned approach to base training. It requires a large time commitment to give you significant gains. Unless you have at least 10 hours/week to train, we do not recommend the long, low-intensity Traditional approach. Workouts include fair shares of form work, pedaling drills, power sprints, force intervals and hill simulations.

This block is primarily geared toward Grand Tour athletes or those recovering from an injury who want to avoid high-intensity intervals.

3 Likes

Is the TBHV really enough for Elite? Ending at “only” 729TSS and 14h

I would say no, but then again, as an “elite” cyclist you most likely have a personal and/or team coach who dishes out your training programme…and it’s not going include Coach Chad or TR.

1 Like

Hey Fasterstronger,
Last winter while I was coaching cross country skiing I was doing Sweet Spot Space just to maintain some cycling fitness with small amounts of time for cycling. I would probably train roughly 8-16 hours per week but only about 3-5 hours cycling. Doing that I was able to maintain my FTP around 270, when I switched to traditional base high volume one and two (skipped three because I felt like that was enough with all the skiing I did) my FTP went up to 305. My advice would be that if you can do 500-700 TSS a week of traditional base you will be better off in the long run. Even though SS is below Threshold I still think it is utilization training instead of capacity building training, meaning it is probably eating at your aerobic base by making you better at a specific thing and less generally fit. Hope this helps, if you want a good read on utilization training, check out The Uphill Athlete.

5 Likes

Nice pull discussing the differences between capacity and utilization. Volume is all about capacity. IMO any new athlete can improve both aspects, but doing a traditional base approach allows someone to work on one at one period of the year, and then another during race preparation.

The notion that someone needs X number of hours to improve isn’t always true, it depends on their previous history. They just need to do more than they previously have done to improve.

1 Like

I’ll throw pathways back on the pile.

(Chad wannabe deep dive)

The “long, low, and slow” higher volume (say 12 hrs/week+) approach accumulates a lot of time in which the muscles release calcium, so the CA2+ enzyme (calcium-calmodulin protein kinase) can break that ionic bond and convert to ATP in the mitochondria. That pathway is the best indicator of aerobic performance – how fast are you at 2mmol/AeT? The problem is that it takes a lot of time – more than many career-and-family-committed adults have – for training.

If you do have the time, though, do the volume – the main effects of low intensity are 1) increasing muscle calcium levels and maximizing the efficiency of that pathway and 2) cycling through the small motor units as they fatigue, so by the end of a long single session – like 4-5 hours+ – the large motor units are having to work aerobically, and at this point, you’ve hit the slow component of VO2 max without your HR cracking 70% or so.

Now, the first objective is reached just through volume. 14 hours of low intensity in one week is 14 hours, no matter how you split it up. The training effect on the CA2+ pathway is the same. The second objective can only be reached through the long ride if you are staying below AeT and not kicking in the AMPK pathway very much.

That second aerobic pathway – AMPK – converts glycogen to ATP through the other aerobic enzyme, adenosine monophosphate kinase. You need to work somewhere between AeT and MLSS (maximal lactate steady state, or – if you buy into the FTP concept, FTP), and the lower in the range, the less glycogen demand, and the higher in that range, the higher the demand. The big motor units have to get involved to help meet the power output, so if you do those 2 x 20s or Hours of Power, you’ll get some larger motor unit recruitment and some slow component VO2 Max (like the last 15 min of a 40k TT – ouch). Sweet Spot emphasizes this pathway, and if you don’t have 14 hours a week to train, then emphasizing this pathway is the best compromise between long-term aerobic development (which is a direct consequence of how many hours you plug away below AeT) and realistic time availability. You’re hitting AMPK, but you’re not getting the “ideal” hit to CA2+ because you’re not getting as much low intensity volume to really work that system most effectively. It’s a compromise, not a substitute, but it’s a hell of an effective compromise, until you hit the point where you’re just not going to be able to add more time in SST zone and you have to add more low intensity stimulus to force adaptations.

Personally, I would not do more than a month during the training year without poking above AeT. My October was “just ride and let the CTL drop.” I still did 60 hours, but it was all puttering around just hard enough to be power zone 2 – so CTL dropped 20 points.

Even doing 14-15 hours a week, I think it would be best for me (N=1 warning) to do two days a week of accumulating 40-60min at 85-89% of FTP for the next four weeks. So a traditional base with some sweet spot seasoning. In that respect, there is probably also some AMPK “compromise” to be done if you can’t do 20 hour+ weeks on the bike during the Foundation/Base phases.

Those big motor unit bears need poked, aerobically. Find the best way to poke them that fits in your available training time. But poke 'em.

41 Likes

@RobertK. Thats really informative and has helped me make sense of a few things that were confusing me. On the basis of being able to do 14+ hrs a week below Aet with small amounts at lower Tempo intensities would adding in a shortish VO2max session every 7/10 days do any good or in fact harm. I’m conscious of. maintaining what VO2max I’ve got as i’m the wrong side of 60

Really well said @RobertK. Thank you! This helped me understand concepts that had previously confused me

nice impression, thanks!

I think the CTL metric works better than total kj for overall stress.

I was doing 12000+ kj weeks, but 14 hours of zone 2, with ~700 TSS/Week (down from 800-900) felt a whole lot easier than doing 12K kj with two VO2/fartlek days thrown in.

After my six-week “just ride around every day and keep some weight off” block, I feel fresh although there was still a good bit of duration. CTL drop from 115 to 95, now I’m only going to ramp >5 TSS/day for 12 weeks, with some reduced TSS weeks thrown in.

1 Like

True. One benefit to traditional base is that more work can be performed at a lower metabolic cost.

Easier to keep from letting yourself turn into a fat slag by doing some high volume 56-65% FTP than by eating less. At least for me!

7 Likes

Enjoy life and great food - crank up the burn!

1 Like

Can you share the source for this statement?

syrke – may be a little garbled, but on a recent Scientific Triathlon podcast, didn’t they note that pre-fatiguing the muscles with, say, an hour of sweet spot at the start of a three-hour ride didn’t quite yield the same motor unit recruitment as just doing the five hour slog?

Or is my middle-aged mind garbling that – that you don’t get the same degree of calcium signaling with the shorter, “pre-fatigued” session, but you do get the motor unit recruitment?

N=1: my FTP increased ~8% over 3 months of riding Z2. Caveat being my average volume increased from 8hrs/wk to 18hrs/wk fairly rapidly. I was pleasantly surprised because I was also under the belief that FTP would decline, or at best, maintain.

W/kg from to?.
How long were youre longest Z2 rides?

Same for me. After 3 months of long zone 2 my ftp increased from 308 to 330. 308 was my previous years best, not where I was at when I started base (I felt lower).

My experience so far has been a simple increase in weekly hours has pretty well correlated to increases in ftp.

1 Like

To whom are these questions directed? :man_shrugging:

You, you can see at your icon i ntop right corner when there is a reply to you even though i skipped the quote :slight_smile:

1 Like

Nope, no show.

But I digress…to answer your questions:

  1. 3.4w/kg to 4.1w/kg.

  2. Longest ride was 6hrs, but only once. Weekend rides progressed from 3hrs to 5hrs. The 5hr rides really moved the needle. :+1:

2 Likes