So why not rate the workout all out and let AI cook? People want watts butbthey can’t do them or they want to do their own thing when its proven AI is better option or they want to train 12 hours when you are recommended 6 and then question everything. Like commit to whatever it thinks you can do and answer survey correctly and not EGO its Hard when you Damn know it should have been Very Hard and if AI thinks its hard that doesn’t mean you should answer HARD if it was Very Hard or All Out. Its simple as that 
I think you are missing the point. Having an FTP set too high does not result in workouts that are too hard (at least for me). TR has made it very clear that AI does not even consider FTP in the context of determining what an athlete is capable of. The problem isn’t that AI is giving workouts that are too hard or too easy. The issue is that the system is setting FTP so far from the physiological reality that the workouts don’t fit their intended purpose. In the new system, manually altering FTP does not change the difficulty of the prescribed workouts. As far as I understand it, there is nothing you can modify in the current system to change what the system thinks you are capable of. Manually adjusting your FTP just forces the system to pick a different workout to match what it thinks you can do. The only way you can change the difficulty of a workout is to pick an alternate or manually adjust the intensity percentage when actually doing the workout.
That cool aid doesn’t taste the same for everyone. AI-based training has a lot of potential, but it’s in it’s infancy. Assuming it’s better for every person in every situation is a bit silly IMO.
Okay so in that case do so. As you keep adjusting you will get follow up survey and then tell AI it was intensity or whatever the reason for adjusting it does 5% or whatever you do. After 3 to 5 workouts AI will get the picture and most likely then give you AI decrease and not something is going to change overnight. Also this magic FTP number of yours is not perfectly perfect every time and you are aware that there is huge range of plus or minus 30 watts so then don’t worry about the ftp number its giving you. The idea is to be able to do the workout how its intended and if you can’t then use surveys to guide the system to where you need to be. This would be same logic as talking to coach. If you don’t tell your coach that you were struggling because of millions reasons that it could be coach won’t adjust your training because he doesn’t know about it. Same goes for AI, it doesn’t know how you slept, were you a bit dehydrated, or undefueled and many other things. Simply you can’t expect AI to know you perfectly as it doesn’t have context about your life. So hopefully this gives you better perspective to give it guidance and time to adjust and it will. This goes for all users in my personal opinion 
No - not supposed to do that when the workout was of the appropriate difficulty. The issue is that it’s giving the wrong workout not that it was too hard / too easy or a failure. Do what you’re suggesting and you end up in a weird swing back and forth confusing the system.
Of course it’s not perfect, but it isn’t magic, it’s based on something that many will say is way more data and science driven, and for many of us it’s been way, way better than TR AIFTP. And no - it’s not 30 Watts Either. Maybe half that due to day to day variation at the extremes unless you’ve got a monster FTP, and even less than that if you’re recovering well and doing workouts at the right time. And - that variation would apply to the TR AIFTP too. Really whatever FTP metric you choose.
Correct, but what if the system keeps giving you the wrong workout? Just blindly keep doing it?
What it gives me is confidence you’re not hearing what people are saying, or that you just don’t understand the issue and potential solutions. People have given it time to adjust, and it hasn’t because it’s more of a flawed model for determining FTP for some people (even though that group may be a minority.) The solution is - manually enter your FTP.
FTP does not fluctuate from day to day.
And 30w would be an absolutely absurd variation for anyone.
When has this been proven???
I would disagree with this statement based on what I saw when I adjusted my FTP down from it being too high. There was a definite decrease in the power profile of a workout selected.
Interesting. That wasn’t my experience when I was adjusting my FTP down manually. It gave me equally difficult workouts, but just longer in zone at lower power, and higher TSS.
The identifiable workouts were Threshold workouts for me. So dropping FTP by 6-7% dropped the threshold workouts by that same percentage.
I was getting say 3x9 min over/unders at say level 4 (but not correctly under my FTP) when my FTP was set as the recommended, but when I lowered 10-15w, TR gave me proper over/unders in the 4x12m range at level 6.5 or so.
This is how things should work. @brenth, if you’re looking to achieve this and aren’t getting these results, let me know.
My “understanding” is that the workouts are NOT selected, and are NOT scaled on your FTP entered. IE… if I raise my FTP today by a lot, workouts would then be shuffled to be shorter duration and at a lower % of my FTP then the previous workouts w/lower FTP.
They have mentioned in the recent Pods that it is just a fitness metric estimate… that you power in various zones and recent Power graph is more what is used… or at least that is “what I heard” from it.
The workouts (which you experienced in your vo2 workout) are based on what you have done and how you rated it. So if you are really good at long efforts… it will give you strong long efforts at 94%, but if you suck at short hard (athlete type or recent training emphasis)… it might only give you vo2 work at 105%. Different riders with the same FTP… will manage those workouts differently. So your volume and maybe some workouts point to a high FTP, but it knows that your power you can handle for vo2 is low % of that FTP.
EDIT: Sorry, just saw Bones post and eddies confirmation on this ignoring FTP behaviour…
I was fine with what I experienced as it made sense.
I dropped my FTP by 10 watts back to where it was before AIFTP and the thresholds are now 10 watts lower. Workout duration doesnt change much as the threshold workouts were typically 9 minute range depending on the workout.
So the few workouts that were applicable at the time I struggled here it was easy to see a 10watt drop. Overall power for the workouts if we look at NP for the workout was also lower. Power profile is also lower. To me this makes sense.
It may show differently if we are looking at other workouts if we are getting extended duration but for threshold it was pretty clear less power over the workout which is what I needed at the time.
Yep, that is my understanding as well and also matches what I’ve seen when playing with FTP. FTP changes shouldn’t make workouts fundamentally harder or easier, it just changes the duration/intensity mix a bit.
That said, a particular individual might really struggle with intensity or duration and it wouldn’t surprise me if they perceived a workout to be harder/easier after an FTP adjustment even if the system is trying to make it equivalent. We are all unique individuals with different strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn’t assume the system is dialed in exactly for every individual.
Logically some things stated here don’t make sense.
Threshold workouts are always in relation to your ftp. Just think over unders: they’re set above and under your TR AI FTP.
Maybe for other workout types ftp isn’t considered, but arguably it clearly by definition is used for at least threshold workouts.
Agree, but if a Coach knows what you’ve done, what your capable… they can then adjust the workouts to match your fitness and progression.
If you lower your FTP by 5%, a coach would then make the overs higher and/or longer. Also the Coach would maybe increase the duration of them at that new 95%FTP. Similarly if you were doing 2min Vo2max at 120% of FTP… but now FTP is 5% less… it might prescribe 2min at 125% or 3min at 120%… or shorten the recovery on 2min@120%.
Further examples would be if lowered it 10-15%… it won’t start serving me up layups with predicted rating of Moderate for an VO2max or Over-Underworkout.
These new suggested workouts will still be around your power curve 6wk PR’s most likely - even though with a lower manual FTP setting.
Yep exactly. I used a manual 10-15w lower than my AIFTP for most of the winter, and I would be setting 6wk power PR’s mainly in the longer efforts, which is exactly what I was trying to achieve. TR will progress you properly with a lower set FTP.
Curious how long have you been manually updating your ftp. Has the aiftp converged or getting close to your manual update? My hope is aiftp will reflect my manual ftp after a while so that I can just use TR as intended.
Mine is about 10-15 watt difference as well. Just started last week with the lower ftp and now enjoying the longer time in zone workouts
I’ve been manually setting mine pretty much since they updated the system in February. And my last AIFTP estimate was even further away from my physiological FTP (going from ~15w to about 20w too high). And with my focus/strength on longer intervals, so I suspected the long efforts are contributing to “misleading” the system since those type effort are probably atypical in the TR general population. The last time I checked my prediction, it was trending down, so I think some vo2max work has given it better perspective. To be fair to the system, most of my training this year has been me selecting the workouts and doing my own thing, so I’m fundamentally not using the system as it’s designed to be used. How much that is contributing to the FTP mismatch, not sure. But if the system is just looking at work performed, I’m not sure why it would matter.
I’m mainly a TR user just for the winter, so for me that was beginning of Dec to the first week of April, so I’m not using now. From my experience, it started 10w too high, and looked like it was going to converge, but it actually started getting worse. By the end, after 4 months of using the system, it was at least 20w out for what I would consider a usable FTP for my base training.