Can confirm that the L1015 is one of the better 10 courses in UK. Weather on this particular night was pretty good by UK standards. FWIW, I went 19:29 off of 359w at the same event and I’m 1.88m and ~78kg
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Hi guys,
Question…i like to tilted up my aerobars. I saw this one…do i need 10 or 15 degrees, or it depends?
Looking for some feedback here of the regular aero testers if the CdA estimate I’m getting via bestbikesplit and some other site are somewhat accurate.
Rider
170cm
65-65.5kg
Relatively broad shoulders but flexible
4.7W/kg FTP
Bioracer short sleeved tri suit
Size M Giro Aerohead with vizor
Fizik Transiro Infinito R3 tri shoes, no socks ofcourse
Setup:
Trek Speed Concept 7.5 Size S
Low - far stem
15mm spacer
Revolver ergo mono mantis cup
Around 12 deg tilt I believe
UCI illegal handlebar and fork
Rotor Aldhu 24 155mm cranks with 54/38 chain rings
KCNC oversized rear derailleur pulley
11-26 SRAM PG1170 cassette
C-bear ceramic BB bearings
Flo 60 Carbon/alu front, Flo 90 carbon/alu rear with EZdisc disc cover
GP5000 clinchers with Vittoria latex tubes at ±7 bar
Elite chrono aero bottle on the seat tube
Bontrager BTS bottle cage with 750ml round bottle
Pic from a middle distance tri:
Pic from an OD duathlon:
So I was doing some 10’ intervals at around 265W (tempo) on Circuit Zolder in Belgium, closed course and I wasn’t drafting or close to any groups and I was averaging 45.2-45.7km/h for those 10’ intervals (about 2 laps on the circuit) where only for one chicane I would sit up a handful of seconds.
The CdA calculators are indicating a 0.1904 or similar CdA which seems really low (but would be nice). A friend who’s 18cm and 10kg heavier was in my wheel with his Ridley Dean TT and doing the same watts in my wheel, and he averaged around 340W to do a solo lap at the same average speed.
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It depends on what bar you are mounting it to. And as for the angle, 10, 20, 30 degrees? It depends! I (and I think a lot of riders) are trying to bring hands up close to face, to close up the gap between arms and underneath your body. This is only one approach, but some really fast guys are using it, so it can’t be bad. @Jamie_Berry is using this, above. I guess Jamie is similar to me, with forearms at about 25 or 30 degrees.
That CdA of 0.19xx looks realistic to me. But the more laps, the more test data you have that is repeatable and backs it up, the better. If you are able to raise your hands a bit, like 100mm, you may get lower - its a test I would try.
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Yes i want to put my face after my hands. Yesterday i had my head low, but because my aerobars are low iam above my hands.
I will use my bars on the bike above i posted yesterday.
I would suggest you do some prototypes with whatever high-rise extensions you have in order to get your fit right (you might do this as part of the fit you are going to have). At that point, you should know what angle you need.
There is a guy in the UK, Jason Swann, who posts on facebook (UK TimeTrialling group) and also on timetriallingforum.co.uk - he makes all sorts of parts exactly for the job you want. I am 100% sure it will be better than aliexpress.
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Really solid position…
the low hanging fruit for you is to get your head lower. It is still up above your body a fair amount.
I know you said you have moved your elbows forward, but there is still opportunity to move them even more forward. This will allow you to stretch out a bit more, which in turn will lower your front end.
Then, rather than shrug, try collapsing your shoulder blades together. This reduces upper body tension vs. shrugging and will lower your head position.
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15* is probably the minimum, but most people can go higher with good results…but it is impossible to know without testing which is “best”.
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Thanks, and thanks again. Really appreciate the feedback. I think you are right; and I also think that the aerohead isn’t a brilliant match for me/my position. @Jamie_Berry has much better helmet/back match, and Rohan Dennis/Dan Bigham show how to get the best out of it.
I bought a Kask Mistral to try. It fogged quite quickly with the visor, although the shape looked better. I would need to do something to get it to work (run without a visor or drill holes in the visor). I’ll try to post pics later.
I was already thinking about moving my elbows forward, so its reassuring to hear you mention that too. One thing I have to be careful of is creating stress in the position; my races are generally hours long, and I need to have a position that I can hold for 4h and longer. Do you think this can be achieved? If I move my elbow pads forward, will I feel extra strain, or will it be harder to hold? @Jamie_Berry and @Majoeric - you guys are running your elbow pads well forward, how sustainable do you think it is for a 100m, 12h or more?
One last thing; I tend to shuffle forward on the saddle when I race, less so in training. This may push my head up a bit. I might look to increase the extension angle to counter this, if it seems sensible?
Not in my experience….i I have my elbows a fair bit forward and can ride a full IM with zero issues. I actually find it more comfortable and creates less strain than have vertical, or close to vertical, forearms.
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Was actually contemplating giving the Kask Mistral a go too. Not having any issues with the Aerohead but always have my eye on improving.
As for stretching out the position and moving pads further forward, I can’t say I run into major issues with holding position. In long training rides ~5+ hours my Delts tend to fatigue and start to ache. Even more so if I angled more. However, Rode this exact set up at IM Hamburg this past weekend to a 4:20 bike split and didn’t run into any issues with delt fatigue. That said, I don’t think I could go any narrower while this stretched out. I definitely think that the Revolver Ergo Mantis pads suit a stretched out, angled positions. Joe Skipper is perfect example of this.
My position during Tri’s vs TTs is somewhat different. Lots more looking up and typically have a 5mm spacer or two under mono-bar as comfort is key for long distance tri. For TTing I am willing to accept a lot of discomfort so will remove the spacers and ride with a more head down (still complying to CTT regs) position and less looking around given they’re almost always on dual carriageways.
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Smear a dab or two of Baby Shampoo on the inside and wipe clean before your ride….will never fog.
Or use Rain-X wipes, but I prefer the shampoo with a soft cloth because it is easier on the visor / optics.
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Will it help to train the shrug position off the bike with doing shrugs workout?
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It’s definitely a strain on the eyes. I normally creep up slightly to scan ahead. Keep in mind this is pretty much a closed course with two lanes of road at disposal.
Obviously this position is not ideal on a course with obstacles or numerous other riders/vehicles.
I believe the arm pads forward is very sustainable. I’ve done numerous 100 mile non stop rides on my setup and have no complaints. Also look at the current trend… joe skipper, rony kuba, etc… they are really extending out the arms and mocking the Superman position of Obree.
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I don’t think so…and I would argue that this is not a good way to “turtle” your head anyway. It can work for short distances, but at the end of the day, you are activating muscles / burning energy to achieve that position.
By contrast, if you collapse your shoulder blades as noted above, you are relaxing your upper body, saving energy vs. shrugging and getting more aero.
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Many thanks, @Power13 @Majoeric @Jamie_Berry - appreciate your experience and thoughts. I will give it a try this week. And try the Mistral, I may even post another pic!
I don’t know where you’re based, Jamie, but if we’re in the same place at the same time, you’d be welcome to try my Mistral? Its a M. And congrats on a very swift IM split!!
long slow whistle
I agree with @Power13 that the position to aim for is more of a sag than a shrug, and if you’re using a lot of your traps to hold you into position, its not going to be sustainable. That said, I did a version of that over winter, and I am finding it easier to hold my TT positions now. So I think it is useful/has its place, but maybe not as transferable as it may look.
As I understand it, once you are in a good TT “turtle”, you need your deep neck extensors to flex your head up in order to see (otherwise you’d be looking at the front hub). But these are tiny muscles that tire easily and are not easily trained. However, the traps support the deep neck extensors and can be trained.
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Ok, so i have to till up my shoulders (for collapse my shoulder baldes) instead of doing my shoulders to the front (shrug)?