Yep, I agree on Epic 8 over WC for MTB and I’d even pick the Epic 8 over WC for gravel racing. Small weight penalty and you get flight attendant and more travel when you need it. The biggest show stopper on both of those bikes for gravel racing is chainring limitations. I think both max out at 38. That works for some gravel races, but not for all. There are hacks with chainline and doing an offset with the crank to fit a bigger ring, but it’s not ideal.
I’ve done a few laps comparing a 160/150 bike vs a hardtail. At exactly the same average power they ran the same…..as long as you used the same wheel set. However, the hardtail felt like a rocketship and the big bike felt like a slow squishy pig. But the stopwatch said they were the same. The big bike was a ton more comfortable but the feeling of slowness was unbelievable.
Joe
Was it a flat loop? I just don’t see how this is possible with any kind of elevation.
Yeah I’m in Florida so not many options for hills. But the math on 5# on a climb is surprisingly little. The problem is the feel of slowness vs actual slowness. You take a long rough course with a lot of climbing and I bet the big bike would actually be faster. I would like to test it someday though (although I don’t have either bike anymore)
Joe
My testing and times couldn’t be further from this. Going from my Ripmo to a real XC bike with lockouts was a night and day difference - The XC bike was faster everywhere except descents. And combining Flight Attendant with a softer shock / fork setup has made my latest XC bike even better.
There’s a reason nobody actually runs Trail / Enduro bikes in XC. They’re slower.
What kind of testing did you do? What kind of terrain?
Joe
Were you using the same wheelset and tires on both bikes?
Going from my Ripley AF to an Exie was a huge change and they are a lot closer than a Ripmo to an XC bike. Think tires/wheels are the biggest change followed by geo/suspension/frame. Weight change between the two bikes was like 8 lbs
I got my Ripmo v2 down to sub 29 lbs at one point. Not an insane weight to race if you only own one bike. Plenty of Spurs and Rangers are around that weight….plus the DW Link is incredible to pedal.
Interesting discussion on HT Vs FS. I think it’s pretty settled that for modern XCO courses a fully is faster, period. But I still ride an HT and I believe there’s still a use case for them:
- I ride a lot in the Alps. Alpine climbs tend to be more like gravel climbs (the singletrack climbs are mostly hiking trails). The HT feels quite good on these. It’s no coincidence that they’re still very popular in the euro XCM scene. In the Alps you also end up frequently having to push and carry the bike at altitude, and you feel every extra gram doing so.
- I ride on a daily basis, even through winter and I maintain my own bikes. The HT is more durable in these conditions.
- I (and many others) also use the XC bike as a gravel bike.
- An HT doubles down nicely as a bikepacking platform, with easier luggage options and no need to readjust rear suspension for different loads.
So, for an amateur that prizes low(er) maintenance, wants a bike that still feels snappy and agile on gravel roads, has to shoulder it up hiking trails and also bikepacks, yes, I thinks HTs still make sense
Not exact same, but both carbon 30mm, and XC tires on both. The Ripmo wheelset was probably marginally heavier, but I was also running lighter tires there and no inserts so probably a wash. Terrain is your typical Northeast Chunk, and I did run the Wilmington Whiteface 100K on the Ripmo first year, and then XC bikes the following two.
The DW-Link is a great pedaling bike, but even a 29# Ripmo with Fast Rolling XC Tires isn’t close to a real XC Rig. And, I have never needed more suspension for traction on the uphills or climbing.
Basically - the Ripmo was faster and more capable on the descents, but that was it. Overall, not close. But with that said - if it’s what you have, run it. And if I could only have one MTB ever again, the current Ripley would get a strong look against my current Epic 8.
All of my home trails - Northeast Chunk, tons of experience on both bikes on the exact same trails. That plus some time in the Adirondacks at Wilmington Whiteface - same course, both bikes set up for XC albeit differing levels of fitness too.
I’ll leave it this way - it wasn’t close enough that I needed to be too formal about it. And there’s a reason nobody in any XC Discipline or Race who takes it remotely seriously would run a trail or an enduro bike. (Other than the “run what you brung” and just having fun)
But I should have clarified - FS XC Bike, not HT. I think a Hardtail isn’t the right tool for the job either.
29lbs seems heavy for a Spur. Mine is sub-25lbs for a medium and not a crazy weight weenie build.
2450g for the Spur vs 2860g for the Ripmo v2 frame weights…so about a lb or so on the frame itself. I could be mis-remembering but I think my buddy’s was around 28ish. Insert in back, Pike up front. Minimal carbon.
If you really wanted to get a Ripmo sub 27 it’s definitely possible….advisable, probably not.
Just to chime in on FS vs HT.
I’m on HT for budget reasons. I have looked at a move to FS that is at the cheaper end of the market, i.e. a Chisel FS, but the weight penalty is more than I want. And buying a Chisel FS and upgrading it would put me at Epic 8 comp’s (on sale) territory.
Once I’m at Epic 8 Expert level, I believe it is as light as my hardtail, and has the lockout, so no disadvantages over my hard tail.
My experience with earlier FS was that it made rough technical sections easier, and provided less fatigue over longer races. I definitely want to move to FS for those reasons, but $5k+ is a lot of money today.
When asked for advice on what to buy, if someone is racing, I say HT if budget under $4k, and FS if budget over $4k. If just wanting to mountain bike and not race, then HT if under $2k and Chisel FS if over $2k.
I’d sorta agree with this. Theres an XC loop near my house (SoCal loose over hard with some rooty sections and 1k feet of climbing) that I’ve ridden all my bikes on. My 2019 Blur with 110 mm travel has the fastest times and my 2022 Stumpjumper with 150mm has the slowest. The Stumpy is faster on the downhill but its a bear to move around and otherwise slower. Interestingly, my 2012 Moots Psychlo-X does not have the fastest time because the terrain is technical enough that its slower than the XC bike. Im building up an Epic 8 Evo soon so I’ll be able to compare that as well.
This is a very good point. I think if I wanted to ride both mountain and gravel and could only own one bike, a HT would be a very good option. Especially if built in a configuration you could add drop bars when needed. Between gravel, bikepacking, and mtb riding, it would be a versatile option.
As much as I drool over a titanium HT, it just didn’t move the needle far enough past my gravel bike to justify it, which made the epic 8 make more sense.
Someday I’ll get my metal HT though!
Look at used Epic Evo 7’s.
You can snag them for Chisel pricing and should be pretty well spec’d. Incredibly similar geo to the Chisel/Epic 8.
Firmware update on SRAM Transmission derailleurs is supposed to speed up multiple shifts.
Yep as someone living and cycling in the SF Bay area my 2x gravel bike doesn’t get nearly the same gravel riding time (double track) as my HT. Being over 200 lbs, means the 31/34 isn’t as helpful when the road tips up. (I’m looking at you Rock Cobbler) So for the gravel in my area I opt for the HT, when I visit the folks in Minnesota, or hit any mid-west gravel (Unbound, Gravel Worlds, Core, etc.), my 2x is the weapon of choice.
If I were to take on Badlands or the insanity of Tour Divide, the HT would also be my first choice.