Zone 2 training with Iñigo San Millán, part 2

[DarthShivious]

This will be a bit abstract but lets see how it goes:

I personally think ISM is telling a good story and his ideas and style resonate with me. But that is my bias.

Coaching an elite who is #1 and ascribing that success to the coach or training methodology is fraught with difficulty. I posit, and some will agree, that for the #1 guy at top of his or her game, the training philosophy is probably not the most important thing.

The trick here isn’t the guy who coaches Pog to the top. Or favorite patron before POG. Pog, and the other greats before him has that special “it” factor that makes a mega-champion. And that factor is probably several factors and very difficult to enumerate or define.

The trick would be the guy who in current context can put Rog, who is a fraction of a percent less good (for argument based on results) over the top of Pog. That is the guy who found special sauce, magic beans, new insights on how to unlock performance.

Similarly, there are numerous training approaches that can take me, a mediocre athlete at best, to 4 w/kg. Been there and done that with several different approaches. What I haven’t found, and what may not be possible for me, is to break that barrier or plateau.

I think that is what a lot of us are discussing, directly or through other vehicles. It is also the topic upon which the coaches, professors, etc are very quiet on. That’s frustrating because its the key problem for most serious athletes. I can get 90% easily. I can coach colleagues to that level of achievement. But how do I get another 1, 2, 5, 10% ? How successful are the talking heads at getting athletes to that extra level of achievement? Again, we just don’t see enough of those use cases discussed anywhere. Which makes me think they are rare and also makes me think that all of this discussion of how to train is coming down to what you like, what you will do and that many different roads lead to Rome.

Apologies to y’all if that takes us too far from the ISM discussion. He seems very good and very thoughtful.

[stino77]

@DarthShivious

Similarly, there are numerous training approaches that can take me, a mediocre athlete at best, to 4 w/kg. Been there and done that with several different approaches. What I haven’t found, and what may not be possible for me, is to break that barrier or plateau.

I think that is what a lot of us are discussing, directly or through other vehicles. It is also the topic upon which the coaches, professors, etc are very quiet on. That’s frustrating because its the key problem for most serious athletes. I can get 90% easily. I can coach colleagues to that level of achievement. But how do I get another 1, 2, 5, 10% ? How successful are the talking heads at getting athletes to that extra level of achievement?

I think the same! Also here mostly FTP towards 4w/kg. Not with special structured training. But going over this plateau, that is the key. And like @DarthShivious says…how to achieve this? Not many cases found indeed ;-).

[Bigpikle]

Agreed with this sentiment.

Reading here and loads of other places, it seems there are almost 2 types of ‘us’ amateur athlete - those that get off the couch, ride a load and get an FTP >300w and 4-5w/kg, and then there’s the rest of us Work really hard and on a good year when the stars align we hit 3.8-4w/kg but probably spend most of our life peaking around 3.5w/kg regardless of what we do

I just doubt somehow its all about the training Maybe total volume comes into it, maybe some just like to, or are better at, pushing through more intensity and break through, but frankly I just can’t get away from the fact its probably more about our choice of parents and grand parents…

Still, it’s good fun to experiment, try different stuff, enjoy the journey and as long as you don’t place your self worth in the final numbers, it seems pretty harmless. There are certainly worse things to obsess over

Now back to my LTP o/u session for 75 mins in the hope it improves my fat burning and lactate use to cat 1 levels

[WindWarrior]

@DarthShivious

personally think ISM is telling a good story and his ideas and style resonate with me.

And I felt that way before Pog - when ISM was posting TP blog articles years before Pog.

@Bigpikle

Work really hard and on a good year when the stars align we hit 3.8-4w/kg but probably spend most of our life peaking around 3.5w/kg regardless of what we do

LOL work really hard and hit 3W/kg. Lets say I lose another 25 pounds and get back to what I weighed in college forty years ago. Well that puts me at 3.5W/kg. But I’m no spring chicken and age is working against me.

What I’ve noticed is the guys of similar stature, say 6+ feet tall, and in 30s or early 40s can ride a LOT in flatland where you are always pedaling, and get into 300-400W ftp club. And they do it without any real structure, just riding and doing a lot of hard group rides. They have muscular builds and don’t have high W/kg, but will hammer 310-350W for an hour which in flatland is a big deal. The smaller aero guys gravitate to all the nearby climbing. My own 6 years of data shows ftp is almost completely driven by volume, regardless of intensity distribution.

[AJS914]

@DarthShivious

Similarly, there are numerous training approaches that can take me, a mediocre athlete at best, to 4 w/kg. Been there and done that with several different approaches. What I haven’t found, and what may not be possible for me, is to break that barrier or plateau.

Back when I raced in my 20s, I came to the conclusion that no amount of training could turn me into an elite. I came to this conclusion because I’d see the occasional newbie start racing with us (cat 4) and then blow through cat 3 up to cat 2 in one season. Did he have special training? No.

I knew a former Olympian who decided to race again after 10 years of working at a desk and getting fat. Zero riding for 10 years. Within six months, he was soloing off the front of very competitive masters 1-2-3 fields and that was still with a 20 pound spare tire. My friends and I never, ever had the fitness to solo off the front or lap fields. Did this former Olympian have secret training methods? No.

There was an interesting story in Tyler Hamilton’s book. He basically said that he didn’t know how to train other than do the “ride lots” method. Ferrari introduced him to 30/30 intervals or something like that and unlocked another gear in him. I always remember that story because how could someone reach that level and not really do structured training.

Another coaching story I’ve found interesting is the Greek guy that trains Mark Cavendish. Nobody like us had ever heard of him but Cavendish goes to Quickstep, gets this new Greek coach, and boom, he’s winning stages at the Tour de France again. Coincidence? Luck? Or the Greek guy has the secret sauce? I think sometimes athletes just need to change what they were doing before.

One thing that impresses me about San-Millan is that now McNulty seems to be getting results. Maybe San-Millan is good at getting at that extra 5%? Could he tell us how to get our last 5% in a 1 hour podcast - probably not.

[adrian_r]

This!
See exactly the same with strength training/weight lifting.
Some seemingly only have to “look at the weights” to get strong. Others can train & eat right for years with marginal results

[WindWarrior]

@AJS914

One thing that impresses me about San-Millan is that now McNulty seems to be getting results. Maybe San-Millan is good at getting at that extra 5%? Could he tell us how to get our last 5% in a 1 hour podcast - probably not.

then how about @sryke summaries on the Pro/Elite thread?

A week in Nov:

Pro/Elite training

McNulty back in training. Easy/recovery days, right at AeT days and … shocker … he even goes into no man’s land/black hole/boy-you-overtrain territory, the evil of all training zones: tempo! What is ISM telling this boy! [grafik]

Most of Nov:

Pro/Elite training

I’ve had this on my to-do list for quite a while. Just added the power distribution to my charts. McNulty November, ISM textbook style base period implementation. What can’t be seen, those shorter tempo efforts are low cadence work. [grafik]

Dec:

Pro/Elite training

McN Dec so far … gets more intense. [grafik]

More Dec:

Pro/Elite training

McN-Watch - December what a package; and what terrain is this, ERG-mode like. Quite structured [grafik]

Jan:

Pro/Elite training

McN watch - Jan 22 so far … Zone 2 building base phase is clearly over. Rides are shorter with more intensity. Just some ISM Zone 2 maintenance sessions yesterday’s session, uffffff, almost 500W for this first 10min effort. And then still enough power left to do a sprint. However, not enough to take the Girona climb KOM. Still, this is where you see the difference to mere mortals. 500W for 10min at this weight! [grafik]

Feb:

Pro/Elite training

McN-Watch Back to prep work after (almost) a week of racing on Mallorca. [grafik] Sat AeT ride at over 300W … uff Today, 3x 60min at SST … ufff … I guess that’s how you prepare for a 60k solo break to the line. [grafik]

General comments:

Pro/Elite training

No, absolutely no Plenty of JV rides post everything on Strava. 100% not polarised. And UAE, no idea. Only few riders post on Strava with power data. However, McN trains a lot right at LT1 which is really demanding for pros. Therefore, overall volume is lower. In winter. But see now. Cycling pros simply can’t be categorised into pol or whatever bucket.

and highlighting Sryke’s summary:

“However, McN trains a lot right at LT1 which is really demanding for pros. Therefore, overall volume is lower. In winter. But see now.”

[sryke]

Sadly, the last three weeks haven’t been good with McN. Apparently got this special peloton bug. Tried training again. Got this bug or a similar bug again. Desaster.

[mailman]

Covid? Good for the likes of us if he can still maintain 7hrs . Then again he doesn’t have to do anything other than that so can still get the rest in instead.

[Aplcr0331]

@AJS914

I came to the conclusion that no amount of training could turn me into an elite. I came to this conclusion because I’d see the occasional newbie start racing with us (cat 4) and then blow through cat 3 up to cat 2 in one season. Did he have special training? No.

I see a lot of posts from people who say things like I just rode around for a year and I’m only at 3.5 w/kg sad mcfrowny face; how do I get to 4 w/kg?

Meanwhile I’ve been riding for 6 years and training for a good 4 and I’m still not at 3 w/kg. Now most of that is weight but I’ve participated in enough sports activities to know that genetics are HUGE. Innate ability is HUGE. Even lowly amatuers like us have genetics that are beneficial for some things and not others.

I can reference my own success with basketball. Not actual real success but it just seemed to be something I was good at without much effort. For instance I was a skate dork and avid skier in high school and just not interested in any other sports. During PE, before we started whatever activity, I would play one on one with a kid on the varsity basketball team. He could never beat me. Frustrated him to no end. After high school I had to take a PE course in college so I took basketball and started really enjoying it (plus I was out of the house and could no longer afford skiing). Within about a 6 month period I was easily better than every player on my high school team and was holding my own with local junior college players. The sport seemed easier for me. I was quick and could jump (just not quite high enough to dunk) pretty well and for whatever reason could shoot. Where I could tell my abilities lacked were on more fundamentals of the overall game and It did take quite some time before I was good at shooting off balance or with a defender in my face.

Now I’m in cycling and it’s not the same…at all.

Another reference point is we had this dude locally who just started riding in 2020. Just small rides not much structure. He starts increasing his riding a bit and then last year was like…I’m gonna train. Which was just a lot of Zwift races. Then he goes outside on some POS hand me down Fuji road bike to do “intervals” on a local climb. He did 5-6 intervals in March and each interval was in the top 10 for that segment and his fastest interval was like 2nd or 3rd. I hate him.

So yeah genetics are huge and it appears that some sort of training can make a difference. But it’s all a big mystery to me.

[sryke]

According to the Strava comments it’s more that he tried training again but had to stop. So it’s not maintenance.

[tshortt]

@Aplcr0331

Then he goes outside on some POS hand me down Fuji road bike to do “intervals” on a local climb. He did 5-6 intervals in March and each interval was in the top 10 for that segment and his fastest interval was like 2nd or 3rd. I hate him.

Yep

[WindWarrior]

Calculating LT1 and LT2 approximately without a blood test?

[image] [image] [image] [image] Source:

[TheBandit]

Actually, I think knowing your approx w/kg at VT1/LT1 is a useful metric.

3w/kg at VT1/LT1 would be a good benchmark for an amateur cyclist. Depending on your efficiency at this power, that’s around 4w/kg at FTP. However, that’s only at 75% FTP. With solid base training, it’s possible to get this percentage much higher. If I remember correctly, some have their VT1/LT1 at more like 85% of FTP.

Most amateurs are obsessed with FTP, for good reason, but neglect building knowledge on the lower aerobic threshold. Yes, raising your FTP raises your VT1/LT1. However, at what percentage of FTP is your VT1/LT1?

Often, athletes that train a majority of intensity have an undeveloped aerobic base, leaving a large gap between VT1/LT1 and VT2/LT2 (FTP).

What ISM and virtually every other top level coach is attempting to do is narrow this gap. My understanding is that the only effective way to increase the percentage of this lower aerobic threshold relative to the higher anaerobic threshold is from below. You have to push it up, not drag it up.

Basically, you have to spend considerable time at or below VT1/LT1.

Result. Modern professional endurance training. Very high volume at low intensity.

Volume, is and always has been, the most important metric. With the added caveat, that this volume is executed with the correct distribution, recovery, nutrition yada yada…

[AJS914]

@TheBandit

3w/kg at VT1/LT1 would be a good benchmark for an amateur cyclist.

Maybe if you are 25 or maybe if you are 145 pounds like Peter Attia. Otherwise, you have large segments of riders, especially older riders, that won’t get to 3W/kg for even FTP.

[Bbt67]

Or 70kg and 49 years old

[AJS914]

[mattonabike]

@AJS914

you have large segments of riders, especially older riders, that won’t get to 3W/kg for even FTP.

@AJS914 not going after your thoughts here specially because I think that feeling you express is pretty common. 3wkg is obtainable by the vast majority of otherwise healthy people who make it a priority. It is my opinion that people wildly underestimate what they would be capable of if things where really honestly made a priority. I am nearly positive my 40yo ass would be 4wkg if i did. I am just under 3 right now. Getting under 15% bf would make me healthier in every way and get me more than a third of the way to 4wkg. If i gave up running and replaced that time with riding, another .2. Up my training to 12h from 6 and give up some social time with friends to make it work for a year or 2, should be enough to get the last 30 watts. Its not that hard to see how most anyone can do it, the question is if its worth it.

4wkg is a ‘realistic’ goal for nearly every person who naturally produces testosterone.

I mean it as opposed to 5wkg which most people cannot reach no matter what changes they make to their behavior. 4wkg is a not horrible benchmark for ‘genetically possible’ for the middle 2 standard deviations of physiologically male people.

Does it mean you can do it while you are 30lbs over weight and you only make 5 hours per week to train, probably not. But if you are 55 years old and get your bf under 15% and train 12 hours per week odds are you can make it to 4wkg. I am not commenting on the question of if that is worth it for a person with a job and a family and taste buds, just that it is a reasonable benchmark. Also, this is in the context of a dr who’s practice revolves around helping very rich people live past 100 so getting your weight down and is pretty central to everything he talks about.

[tshortt]

Based on what he writes, seems like Alan Couzens might not have caught that Attia measured and knows his baseline. And so he’s going to know if it moves. I think Attia’s tweet would have been clearer if he would have written: “My sweet spot is about…”, instead of the…makes it seem like he’s providing a guideline for all. If in fact it’s ME that is misunderstanding and Attia IS in fact saying that, then yeah, Alan is correct.

In that thread he doesn’t mention it, but in the podcast with ISM, it’s clear that Attia isn’t just going off of absolute values that were provided as general guidelines or from ISM’s paper (which they discussed).

(not to mention staying away from the expression “sweet spot”, which he is using generically, but in cycling it can trigger ppl…not sure why) LOL

[Yepyep]

Thankfully Couzens also coughed up his preferred range for z2 as ranging from first inflection point to first inflection point +.4 mmol.