Zone 2 - How Many Hours a Week?

Training
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It CAN be if you’re that crunched on time, but it comes with potentially lots of fatigue and a level that’s hard to sustain due to the sheer work rate of riding at Sweet Spot. I believe it should have it’s place in every cyclists quiver, but I don’t think it’s a direct replacement. I don’t believe there is ever any true replacement for training different systems. Maybe there is, but surely some of them aren’t sustainable long term. And if we’re talking about building an aerobic engine we are thinking long term.

Every coach I have bothered spending time listening to (Cusick, Coggan, Overton, Housler, Fastlabs guys, Seiler, San Milan, Scientific Triathlon guy(s), etc etc) all advocate and find a lot of benefit in Z2 (classic) or Z1 (Seiler) riding. None of them have ever said that Sweet Spot is a replacement for Endurance or classic Z2 riding.

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22

Great reply.

With the quantity of research available, it becomes hard to figure out what is best.

First, what is considered being time-crunched?

For an athlete who only has 6 hours to train per week, should he/she only be doing sweet spot?

As for me, I have up to 12 hours per week to train. At what point does someone do the traditional base over the sweet spot plan?

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Agreed. I’m one year shy of you in terms of training, so still VERY new to the sport in that regard. I will say this, my strongest season to date is this season. It’s hard to pinpoint exactly why, but I suspect it comes down to three things. Recovery is NOT one of them.

Total training hours are within 10-15 of the last 3 seasons, so volume hasn’t been the main factor. It’s A) keeping structure longer into the season B) incorporating more longer Z2 rides C) incorporating a couple dedicated VO2max blocks. I find Z2 rides to both be mentally refreshing, but also great for mixing up training. It makes me hungry to want to do intervals.

I’ve accepted the work smarter, not harder mentality when it comes to training and intensity. I had previously been plagued by the “tempo trap” or only ever riding at high-tempo, Sweet Spot or harder. Contrary, to what Sweet Spot proponents want you to believe, you don’t need 15 hr weeks to benefit from Z2 work.

A couple long Z2 rides per month does a body good (no scientific evidence to back that statement up)

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I find the research interesting, but what I dislike about it is that very rarely is it applicable to YOU. Most of it is lab-controlled with varying degrees of control. Or some of it can be skewed to confirm the bias a researcher had.

A great example of this is a study performed by Bent Rønnestad (very smart guy). It compared two types of VO2max intervals. @empiricalcycling dedicated an entire podcast to dissecting why he thought it was such a terrible study. Certainly there are good and applicable studies, but I do think it takes a good amount of sense and experience deciphering them. The bottom line is this…

Do not try to find “the best”. The best is being consistent with whatever approach you take. The best thing is to experiment. Mix it up based on how you want to structure your season. TrainerRoad has built in periodization if you follow the Base > Build > Specialty approach. It’s highly effective for a vast majority of us amateurs.

6 hours is what Chris Carmichael built his Time Crunched Cycling Plans around. So yeah, that would be time crunched. That is a fantastic book, by the way. Lots of education from it as well as a variety of different plans.

My advice for a new rider is to spend a season following the plans as they are out of the can…see how you feel and respond before you start questioning things. If I was starting new again I would do the same, despite having shifted my approach. Focus on A) progressive overload B) consistency C) variation D) proper recovery

If you do those things well it’s impossible to not get stronger. Good luck with training.

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It’s not sexy but reading your story, if you want real gains I would eliminate all your sweet spot.

Sweet Spot and Sweet Spot base are for people in a hurry. I love Chad but I believe I have heard him say almost anyone can build a sufficient base with 12 weeks of base work. Don’t flame me if I got that wrong :joy: but bases are not all equal.

I feel I could do 12 months of base and still see improvement.

I was using the TR plans but opted to hire a coach (I still use TR workouts). After some testing he immediately put me back in base and we worked up from there. After the race season stopped for good in my state for COVID he immediately put me back in base.

Base/Z2 is not sweet spot. I did zero sweet spot in base. We weren’t in a hurry.

Building back up to a Nov race and my FTP is back where it was when we went back to base. But, my ability to work for longer durations is greatly improved. I can basically add an interval to whatever I am doing (5x15 vs 4x15 for instance) with no change in HR or cadence due to extending.

You don’t need a coach to tell you what to do or build a plan. Fortunately for you, TR calls this sweet spot free plan traditional base. Do this until December and switch to SSB. As you said, it’s not overly exciting but the gains might be.

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With 8-9 hours and a history of a few seasons of SSB, I would suggest you give traditional base mv a try. I started TR 2 years ago with SSBLV, did SSBMV last year, and tried TBMV this year. It was really worth it.

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Hi All

Thanks for all the input…and variety of answers.

Just for your info - the fasted Z2 rides are because I do an indoor 90 min turbo session at 5.30am before work.
To do this I am up at 5am so if I were to eat, I would need to get up earlier which isn’t likely to happen. I was hoping fasted may teach my body to utilise fat as a source of fuel but this isn’t the prime reason…it’s logistics.

As extra info, I am not racing next season. I am an enthusiastic rider but not a racer. We do sportives in the UK and some trips to the Alps for cycling.
Sportives - Tour de Yorkshire, London Revolution, Dragon Ride etc and then Mount Ventoux in France (possibly 3x in a day).
So sportives are between 70-100 miles in a day and then a chunk of climbing if we get to France.

I have traditionally struggled after around 60-70 miles so Z2 work seemed a good place to potentially improve this situation (and I know fuelling on the day, water intake etc play a massive role) but in training terms, I have never tried base training, just TR SS Base work but then struggled to improve much.
Just thought a different approach this year may help?

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I was thinking of doing SS workouts after this block and add 30 mins Z2 after those to build on what I (hopefully) built in this block

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Hi

On SS mid volume last year I was always fatigued and legs felt heavy. I assumed my ability to recover between workouts wasn’t good enough.
I used the ramp test but my FTP I believe comes out very generous on a ramp test (hence switching back to a 20 minute test).
On a ramp test, using that FTP, I couldn’t hold sweet spot work without needing to rest on pretty much every workout and under overs were impossible after the first block.

I get what you say about the old test but apart from mid-upper zone cycling, I have never focused on any obvious base as I read that the less time you have to train the higher the intensity workout you should focus on (then fill extra sessions with lower intensity workouts).
Since this approach doesn’t seem to have worked for me I was looking at something different.
Since I have never made a huge effort to create a base I assumed what the physiologist said is probably still somewhere near the mark…hence putting it in my question.

Fasted rides are done because it’s 5.30am and I don’t want to get up earlier to eat plus I want a bigger breakfast after training as cycling makes me hungry so not consuming anything prior to my early ride reduces total daily calories. I was hoping it may side benefit me in teaching my body to use fat as a source of fuel but that would be an added bonus rather than a primary goal.

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I asked this question a few weeks ago with similar curiosity. Answers were all positive to additional Z2 if possible.

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I have pretty much the same idea as you. Since I have to much time at hand and need a break from the intensity. I do a few weeks of traditional base. I for now will start with the first 4 weeks and see how it goes, probably add another block of this, goals for this are.

  • Lose some weight
  • Get used to the low inertia of the flywheel speed of the small big ring combo
  • Get used to the longer time on the trainer normally only did 1h and 1.30 min did feel long
  • and last but not least see how I adapt to Zone 2 work, maybe this is something I respond well, idk so I have to figure it out for myself

The only thing that I am not sure about is that we have a racing league on Zwift coming up in a few weeks, where I would like to participate. This will be Sweetspot to Treshold effort for about 40min to 1:20h not like i can sustain that all the way but it will be race mode… and idk how to handle them in the beginning of my training plan. After the long Traditional Base Phase I will start with SSB low or mid and add some Zwift Races as training and see from there knowing how hard the intensity of Base phase was from last time I will make sure that this is very late in the year I am sure after Base and Speciality if I make it to this phase anyhow I will be starving to go outside riding and kick the trainer in a corner.

Already the used to the Long Rides on the trainer
Already feel a lot better with the slower flywheel speed but big ring will always be easyer for me i think

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The traditional periodisation approach recommends 80% should be in Z2 in the base phase, dropping to about 40% in the final and maintenance phase, where faster speed orientated sessions rise proportionately ie, race season; hence, Z2 should always be a significant proportion of your weekly training. However, even if you follow that approach in general, it isn’t always delivered as such; take triathlon as an example, if your events are the true Tri distances, then this approach is possible, but if events are long course, 70.3 or IM, clearly the distances you will train will increase the closer you get to your goal event, ie, almost the converse of the traditional approach.

It isn’t hard to find proponents of using different zones for increasing your mitochondria density, from Z2 – Z5! They each say their recommendation is the best and backed by R&D. The TR coaches favour Sweet Spot (Z3).

I think these supposed experts need to sort this out, they can’t all be right.

Maybe they are each the perfect solution, but for an extremely specific situation or type of athlete, eg, age grouper vs a highly trained elite/high performance/professional athlete?

Associated with this is the other training intensities and their measurement. TR clearly use FTP as the measure of intensity, for both training sessions and as a comparative of fitness. But, athletes, with the highest FTP/kg don’t win all races.

When we train, it our bodies that we are working with, it is changes to our technique, neurology, energy systems, heart, lung, capillary capacity, mitochondria density, heart stroke volume, etc, and FTP or wattage don’t measure any of them. RPE still seems a better measure of our body’s reaction at any moment, as imperfect as it too is.

Many TR workouts are categorised as Z5 VO2Max, but what is that intensity? Does 130% FTP equate to VO2Max? It seems doubtful. I say that as once you reach that rarefied level of discomfort, it seems it can be maintained for a few minutes, but during that period in all likelihood your FTP will decline significantly. Targeting 130% FTP, may help you get to VO2Max in the first instance, but once there your breathing is more likely to tell you if you are maintaining that level.

The intermediate zones ie, 3 and 4, eg, Tempo, are they actually beneficial zones to train, or just hard enough intensities to make you feel good about yourself? Are they no more than psychological training, preparing your head space for upcoming events?

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33

@Day, from your posts, I’m understanding that you are not naturally a diesel engine, but your events are all geared up to this (and you don’t need much top end).

I did a variation on SSB1 HV for most of this year (probably 4-5 months), and it helped me enormously in building my own diesel. probably most of all, I stretched the time I could work at tempo from maybe 90 mins out to 4 hours plus (100 miles TT was my target).

As we head into base season, I am going to do TB HV, and concentrate on getting as many Z2 miles as possible. Partly this is so I can experiment and find out how I respond to Z2 high volume. Partly its because I responded well to SSB1, but I can’t do that all year from a mental POV.

From everything I have read/heard, a lot of base Z2 miles are always good (although below 6 hours per week, SS may be better for some). And the long ride is the key workout, so don’t compromise on that!

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Thanks.

I decided to stick to a majority of Z2 work for the next 3 months or so.
I assume I will lose some top end ability (but hopefully get that back next year).

I found with TR SSMV I just couldn’t recover so either my ‘FTP’ was too high (it definitely was which is why I am not doing a ramp test as I artificially score higher than I should) or my ability to maintain higher amounts of volume wasn’t there…or most likely a combo of the two.

So I will try to increase my volume and recovery over the next 3 months and then start bringing in some sweet spot but (at the moment) aim to still do 2-3 rides at Z2. One of those will be an outdoor longer ride until the weather gets better.

Will see how it goes but as @freoishome said, you can get very well informed and qualified individuals recommending every type of training out there so I’ll take it as ‘try something, see if it works and adjust next time accordingly’.

Will see how it goes.

P.S - Still trying to find what I’m good at on the bike. Not sure if I’m a diesel or not. I think I’m probably better at longer efforts as my short bursts of power aren’t anything to write home about…then again…maybe I’m just worse at those than longer durations (rather actually being better at longer stints lol)

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Have you ever trained your “short bursts of power”?

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Not specifically but I assume that would be built long after you have completed your winter base?

I don’t race so have never really gone for super short intervals (except when I used Sufferfest (quite a lot of 40/20s) for a while a couple of years ago…should I wash my mouth out?? lol).

Last year the shortest intervals I did were 2-3 minutes but nothing shorter.

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Yes, true, but if you are trying to figure out what you’re good at on the bike, and don’t race, then you could probably experiment at any time of the year.

You’re not going to know until you try. Couple of things to know if you want to give it a shot: 1) short power (sub-2min) training is h a r d work and very different than the usual interval stuff; 2) it can theoretically lower your FTP.

All that said, look at the type of riding goals you have, you most likely don’t need to train your short power. Guess I’m saying don’t discount your abilities at something until you’ve tested them out.

Lastly, even super strong short power riders do lots of Z2 work.

:+1:

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Interesting thread. Because the winter is long (North East USA) and a ot of things were cancelled I’m ready to start Base Training now.

I’ve decided on a similar model for the next 12 weeks - L2 training with the Threshold Progression. Mt thoughts, similar to above are to work on my ability to hold near FTP efforts.

M - 90 mins L2
T - 2x20 (progression)
W - 90 mins L2
T - 2x20 (progression) / every second week a V02 workout
F - 90 mins L2
S - Rest / Cross Train / Cycle
S - Rest / Cross Train / Cycle

I’m a M-F trainer road guy and the weekends I tend to either ride, run, hike, spend time with the family.

I’m planning on following the threshold progression models covered elsewhere - 3 work outs every two weeks. As I’m 45 I’m also sprinkling in a V02 workout - probably something like a 5x8min@108% for variety.

Every 3rd, or 4th week, will be some sort of recovery.

In Jan after this I’ll probably go back to the TR plans — I’m sure they will change something by then - an AI based plan builder.

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I’m curious about this - I’ve always ridden ERG mode on the big ring, but kinda wish I had used the small ring for a couple of different reasons. I’m a bit loath to change now, as I wouldn’t be comparing current testing/training with previous years (and the limited small ring riding that I’ve done in ERG mode felt like riding in treacle!).

Do you mind sharing what it is that are you hoping to gain, and what made you decide to make the change?

Similarly, has anyone else been down this road already, and how did it turn out?

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I’ve done a lot of Z2 in the last year, 2 hr trainer rides. I do them without first eating, but some carb in the bottles makes them much more pleasant. (not anything near 100 gm, more like 25 gm, just to take the edge off)

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