My understanding is that with longer rides, the gylcogen depletion sends an adaptation signal. The other factor is fatiguing the slow twitch muscles and then recruiting faster twitch fibers and training them aerobically.
More is better. It’s why fast amateurs are doing 12-15+ weeks and pros 20-30 hour weeks. The more well trained one is, the longer it takes to deplete glycogen and fatigue slow twitch fibers.
I read a study a long time ago that focused on a single long ride. I believe they were measuring pgc alpha or some other signal. They showed increased signal though with diminishing returns for rides up to 6 hours…
Personally, I don’t really ever want to sit on a bike for 6 hours at a time.
I love riding, and 3 to 4 hours rides are awesome. But I’m a single dad with a full-time job and studying for a certification, I don’t have this luxury. A few times here and there, yes! But not all season.
Plus, living in Canada means 4 months inside. 3/4hrs ride inside isn’t really enticing.
Most people take this to mean that fasted rides or eating low carb would create better adaptations or allow them to do shorter rides and get the same benefit. As you alluded to, that’s not really the case, and it has more to do with time and contractions than anything else, and those big rides are best done well fueled.
You can if you want…but to what level of detail. I mean, once you know approximately what your z2 heart rate is, then why bother drilling it down much more. For everyone, the z2 hr is going to be blummin slow (compared to their threshold) and it’s going to feel blummin slow and their breathing is going to be mega-chill.
I don’t see why that needs to be more complicated. I just want some meditative time on the bike without worrying whether I am within 5% of the perfect target for the perfect z2 execution. I guess if folks want precise science to ensure they spend the minimum amount of time on the bike for the maximum gains, then z2 on the trainer, fixed in erg mode is the way to go. But no one is going to get anywhere near close to perfect data outside. I don’t need to be fixated on numbers. I’d rather just look at the horses, and work off how I’m feeling with a quick glance now and again to make sure I’m not getting carried away and tipping into z3 HR unintentionally.
It isn’t perfect. But neither am I, the dodgy lanes that I ride and the undulation of the elevation.
Riding on a trainer is like proper test-tube science. Riding outside is bucket science. Why bring test tube numbers to something that is very hard to control? Go with feel, and enjoy the ride, and keep the hard concentration and narrow numbers for the intervals.
Just my opinion, but just because I take a relaxed view to my Z2 numbers does not mean that I don’t take my training and events seriously. Cycling is still a way of life to me, rather than just a hobby. It costs me all my spare time and spare money for a start!
All great points, I just don’t think knowing your lactate numbers and what your ‘ideal’ z2 wattage target should be prohibits or prevents you from riding around however you want. Heck you can choose to ride to the data some days and not others, all the time, or not at all.
Unless of course none of this interests you, which is totally fine. This is to most of us a hobby, and we should all be so blessed to enjoy it however we choose.
It’s my understanding (mostly from the Empirical Cycling Podcast) that fasted rides tend to be done with depleted liver glycogen not muscle glycogen and its the muscle glycogen that needs to be depleted to get the signals. I’m more than happy though to be shown I’m wrong though.
The increased AMPK signaling via an increased amp/atp ratio is in fact in the muscle cells. It seems that low carb / fasted training isn’t needed to provide signal saturation though, or at least does not improve response / adaptation, and at worst can blunt adaptation from poor recovery.
I agree with that. Whether you do a ride fasted or not, you are still starting off with glycogen in your legs unless you did efforts the day before and then ate keto.
I tried an easy 90 minute fasted ride once and my legs were sore for 2 days like I had done a VO2 workout and I was completely wasted the rest of the day after the workout. I think depleting liver glycogen really bonks you.
No and why it is potentially better, outside, because “pure” isn’t as effective as natural variance. Some really dont get it, a spike or two is actually very beneficial as long as it not too long. As is sometimes top end or Z3 and really low or Z1. Consistent Z2 isnt as effective IMO.
Exactly. ERG has made people think that optimal training is sticking to the prescribed watts perfectly. Small variations in power and cadence are good for you, especially if you ever intend to race or even just ride well outside.
It seems, in the past, the easy endurance rides fasted were good.
I did quite a few in the past, +/- 90min, and the lack of energy is brutal. I recovery well, I don’t feel more or less tired after a fasted ride. Haven’t done lately.
What I do feel is that if you need to eliminate some weight, they are quite effective.
I wonder if this is something your body can train? YEARS of training for the marathon and heading out on the forest trails for 2-3 hour run and maybe a drinking fountain along the way… I never felt this. To this day I have no issue even on the bike going that long (outside of fatigue).
(Looking back I do wish I had fueled the runs better, I did try but my stomach was super sensitive and it wasn’t emphasized back then like it is now).
Agree and should have included this… but I did all morning runs fasted as I would get terrible stomach cramps if any food was in my stomach within the last 1-2 hours. Even my marathon races….
Don’t know why that was, wish it was different. Maybe I could’ve “trained my gut” if I had focused in it. Maybe not.
But in that regard, I do wonder if running fasted and/or the “side effects” of it is something that you can train. Not that you should… it was just a curiosity. Like I said, I have never experienced the fatigue or soreness you mention from a fasted 90 min run or ride.
I have a really sensitive stomach, but have found that I can get away with eating a medjool date before my fasted run just to get rid of that “man, I’m starving” feeling.
Wouldn’t it make more sense for me to link you a podcast? that seems to be the gold standard these days. And trust me it doesn’t take expertise to slap down some lazy hyperbole.
Because that wasn’t what the podcaster said in that reel I watched !!!
Lots of black and white thinking in this thread which is a classic sign of emotional intensity of course another symptom of the popularization of sports science. It used to be that the scientific method relied on others challenging research, conclusions, methods, etc. Now it’s damaging to the online brands and discussion is met with a lot of backlash.
If you mean a podcast/ reel by coaches who actually train high level cyclists and have real world experience dealing with humans of all types. Sure, or you can go by the double blind study of 5 untrained cyclists that trained in a controlled environment, whatever.
There is no black and white thinking, you just think your way of thinking is the only way people should think. Plenty of people disagree with you, so if you throw shade; I’ll throw it back.
IMO, you’re trying to complicate something for the average TR forum visitor. 90% of the people here will have better improvements just from being consistent.
