I have a really sensitive stomach, but have found that I can get away with eating a medjool date before my fasted run just to get rid of that “man, I’m starving” feeling.
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Wouldn’t it make more sense for me to link you a podcast? that seems to be the gold standard these days. And trust me it doesn’t take expertise to slap down some lazy hyperbole.
Because that wasn’t what the podcaster said in that reel I watched !!!
Lots of black and white thinking in this thread which is a classic sign of emotional intensity of course another symptom of the popularization of sports science. It used to be that the scientific method relied on others challenging research, conclusions, methods, etc. Now it’s damaging to the online brands and discussion is met with a lot of backlash.
If you mean a podcast/ reel by coaches who actually train high level cyclists and have real world experience dealing with humans of all types. Sure, or you can go by the double blind study of 5 untrained cyclists that trained in a controlled environment, whatever.
There is no black and white thinking, you just think your way of thinking is the only way people should think. Plenty of people disagree with you, so if you throw shade; I’ll throw it back.
IMO, you’re trying to complicate something for the average TR forum visitor. 90% of the people here will have better improvements just from being consistent.
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Not going to keep arguing with random people on this thread, but take a step back and tell me if your supposition that it’s either go with coaches or go with a made up low quality study is an example of black and white thinking.
The correct approach is somewhere in the middle. I never said that you have to stick a metabolic cart in a car and drive around all day looking at live data. But I do object to the idea that the “average user” needs to not have access to the material because it would “complicate”. That is not your decision to make.
Thinking of the food you were going to eat when you got home? 
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TR prescribes me three hard sessions a week so I don’t need to worry about “zone 2” …a good thing, as I can’t even figure what people are arguing about in this thread any more! 
Peace! 
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There’s nothing really to argue about - endurance training is fairly easy. You just go ride.
There is nothing magical about riding right at fatmax. LT1, 1.7-2mmol, or any other magical intensity one can dream up.
And you can’t “ruin” a Z2 or endurance ride.
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But but ISM said you could! And he “coached” Pogacar! So he must be right.
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And Pogi seems to be faster without him now! 
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I’m sure he got faster by not paying any attention to the details of his training and making sure his coaches do the same.
what a waste of time (contain irony).
Plus, it was 11:46 + 00:13
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Why ride a bike if you’re only going to record heart rate? Might as well chuck it in the bin and take up needlework. Probably get better selfies too.
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I don’t understand how everyone is so black and white on this.
Because you did 13 seconds of tempo and it doesn’t ruin your z2 ride now the logic must stand that it is impossible to ruin a z2 ride ?
Go ride for 4 hours straight 25w above your LT1 with your bottles set up for an LT1 ride and report back to me on how you are feeling.
Don’t think that is realistic ? Well your LT1 moves around a lot depending on various circumstances so when you set these arbitrary zones using proxy methods (HR, power) what you end up inevitably doing is chasing a number that doesn’t reflect your internal condition on the day and you could easily be 25w above where you should be. Dietary choices, heat, hydration, stress, rest, fatigue, stimulus, drugs… The gold standard is lactate testing to learn the RPE of what 2mmol feels like.
Details matter guys this shouldn’t be so controversial.
And for the love of god, You can do whatever you like for noodling around with your friends… We are talking about training for racing here not training for training.
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Have you read anything that compares training by lactate thresholds to training by power (or even HR and RPE)?
Serious question, because I’ve personally come across nothing that compares them directly.
Especially since for me, “z2” is just whatever intensity I can do without accumulating problematic fatigue that day. Ie: to me z2 is defined by the amount of fatigue it induces. Not intensity. As that’s how we use it in our training.
And I’m not sure that lactate levels are a better predictor of fatigue than power. Or just RPE. Given that we don’t understand the physiology behind fatigue, but that lactate levels don’t seem to be the main driver at least.
To me at least, this is probably the biggest reason why I didn’t find lactate to be helpful with training. Well, and that it didn’t lead to me doing anything different in my training beyond what I was doing with just power.
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Yes of course there are hundreds of lactate based training paradigms all of which are used to circumvent the limitations of the 7 zone model (it’s over simplified )
Lactate levels aren’t necessarily a predictor of fatigue but they are exactly a competitor to fatty acids in the mitochondria which means that they shut down the target stimulus of this training…
Unless your target stimulus is something different which is the case for most every person because “z2” just means whatever at this point it’s practically a meme , even though the idea of ISM z2 as a unique metabolic state by in which mitochondrial function is maximized in steady state exercise is super relevant to high level performance…
There are still people that say oh no zone 2 is just when my HR is below 140… massive issue in the language of sport as the true ISM z2 is a unique metabolic state delimited by mitochondrial function and thus lactate levels since ISM showed in his 2018 paper that blood lactate levels are a window into the mitochondrial function of the individual which is normally something not so easy to measure.
People get confused but it’s really not that complex.
FYI - Lactate does not shut down training adaptations. Even threshold work induces those same adaptations. Otherwise sweet spot training wouldn’t do anything useful.
If you (or anyone else) has anything that compares training based on lactate vs power on performance outcomes, send them my way to read! This is something I’ve been thinking about recently.
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This might be what you’re looking for
LT1 is 238W apparently…
The thing is, I think the majority of people replying to you (or voting) think the one who is being so black and white is you.
Firstly, this was a thread with the OP asking about Z2 in the 5 zone model and you keep trying to make it about ISM Z2 no matter how many times people point it out because you keep explaining why your way is the only way and anyone saying differently is wrong (and, GASP, doing anything different is just noodling around!) (black and white).
Secondly, you made that statement and then went on to post a detailed definition of ISM Z2 (black and white)
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I think you didn’t understand that most people were joking, including me. I even stated (contain irony) to avoid misunderstandings
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