You sound similar to me. I just did a VO2 block after base. I worked up to 1x120 mins SST, and am quite a diesel these days. I hadn’t done any VO2 work since around May, and that was a more re-opening the lungs for a few workouts after recovering from Covid. Last proper VO2 block was Jan 2022.
I ‘primed’ with a fairly achievable 40/20 workout 2 days before the start of the block. Other than this, the block was straight out of base, so I didn’t do much prep. I did some tempo/burst workouts in base that might have helped keep the legs awake a little.
My VO2 max block was 2 weeks (each with 3 back-to-back VO2 workouts). I did all workouts in resistance mode on the trainer.
I find 3 minute efforts to be short enough (and therefore intense enough) to get me to that dark place fastest and for longest, so perhaps it’s similar for you if you’re not making it through the workout?
For the above reasons, I’ve actually done more 7x3 workouts than any other to maximise stimulus for me. For example, in my final 7x3 (3 RBI) I got 17:51 over 90% HR max vs 15:20 for a 5x5 (4 RBI). I know HR isn’t be all end all, but it’s a good post-hoc indicator of what ramps me up, which also correlates with my RPE and breathing. Another bonus is these 7x3s are 4 mins less work, so saving a few KJs in the bank as well.
As I’m a diesel, VO2 efforts are a real struggle, but I find longer more ‘paced’ efforts like 5 mins to be easiest as they’re closer to my wheel-house. So maybe that’s something for you to consider if you can’t get in enough work (even though it sounds counter-intuitive).
Also be careful tying VO2 workouts to FTP/power zones if that’s what you’re suggesting you do. You’re more likely to over or under-do it! Pin it, and RPE it out for best results!
I’m curious what does WKO5 's iLevels show or prescribe?
I’m familiar with iLevels and like the concept. I have the same problem ( after lots of thresholds wo i’m too close to my vo2max). I haven’t bought wk05 yet given i bought prior versions, I ended up not using it too much given the GUI is not easy.
Repeats of 6reps by 4 mins at 115-120%ftp with equal rest is nuts. Not surprised the workout was failed. I would progress to it over many weeks by first building duration then building repetitions. For example, 3reps by 3min, then 4 reps, then 5 reps, the back down to 3reps for 4min, up and up.
Are you just doing VO2max?!? It sounds as if you are following a home-made training plan, correct?
It sounds to me you want too much too early by doing too much without proper preparation.
Also the workout itself does not seem well-designed: At least in the first workout of your second post, you don’t even go near threshold during your warmup. For VO2max workouts you must slowly work your way towards Z5 and then spend brief periods (15–30 seconds) near target power. If you e. g. do 130 % VO2max efforts or very long VO2max efforts, you can also include a small ramp (either in wattage or duration).
Please don’t, start way easier with e. g. 5 x 3 minutes and progress from there.
Also, instead of just taking numbers from wko5 or some other platform, focus on how things feel and take into account how doable workouts are. So e. g. if you have currently set your power during the VO2max intervals to 120 %, try 115 %. The physiological adaptations will be very, very similar.
Couldn’t agree more. I’d even start at 2 or 2:30min intervals. Make it easy, build slowly. Also I don’t see the need to do 4 min vo2 intervals. Especially when you look at the science behind 30/30’s.
No iam a self-coached athlete. Since 2015 i ride with power and read alot about training and periodisation. Also with the help from @kurt.braeckel
In the first workout i have also do a warmingup with 2 short efforts on target power. but i have not put that in the printscreen because the question is going about the vo2 blocks.
Yeah, @kurt.breckel is really helpful and I appreciate him sharing his knowledge.
Going back to your training plan, perhaps it is because we are not privy to it, but I get the vibe it isn’t fully cooked. Perhaps it would be better to start with a known good template and then adapt that
rather than to draw it up from scratch.
Can you explain why you think this is important?
Judging by the numbers you posted I wouldn’t consider this February 2022 workout a success: you were unable to meet your power targets for intervals 4–6.
Last years i always work with the periodisation Z2/SST/FTP toward the season. And always i plateau around 300-310w with around 10-12 hours work. So this year i want to change something, because if you always do what you did, you got what you got. I checkt my periodisation with @kurt.braeckel and he agree with that. And this is a way beyond my question…sorry.
With Vo2max power is not important but heartrate and breathing. It doesnt matter that interval 4-6 not the same power as the first intervals. If you can see is the HR high enough and breathing like a fish.
I’m not so sure. I have the feeling that VO2max intervals were coming out of the blue and that you chose one that is way too hard for a first VO2max workout. But I accept if you don’t want to talk about your training plan.
I’m not quite sure I follow. Holding power on target is in my opinion much more important than heart rate or how your breath feels.
Breathing is typically not measured at all (do you have a breath rate sensor?!?), so I am not sure how you can judge breathing objectively. (As an aside, I’m not a native speaker, what does “breathing like a fish” mean in this context?) Heart rate and breathing take care of themselves with VO2max workouts: either you can manage the workout or you run out of steam and then can’t. What matters ultimately is power.
Just to give you an idea: adjusting cadence downwards can lower your heart rate a little, it all depends whether your limit are your cardiovascular system (then lowering cadence might buy you a bit more time-in-zone) or muscular (then increasing cadence might shift the load on your muscles to your cardiovascular system).
sorry but it is not out of the blue, but a part of my plan.
I think we don’t have the same thoughts about it. Just listen to Kolie More’s podcasts. Breahting like a fish is a high breathing rate and high as possible heartrate for the time. Cadans also high, so you get less muscle fatique. But you must do it as you think is right.
I started trying VO2 workouts for the 1st time in November, so I’m no expert, but I have progressed well, and have completed all but one. I suspected my FTP was low to begin, but I’m way above that 2 months later, so that first workout doesn’t really matter at this point. My goal was to do one VO2 wo per week, so a little different, but here is the general progression. I had read somewhere that VO2max should be 106%-125% and 15-25 min total with reps in the 2-5 minute range. I have been breathing like a fish out of water at the end of each rep, for all of these workouts, but they are paced for completion.
-I used watts, % of ftp. I started with the 1st workout at 106% FTP (240w) and tried to get close to 15min so I did 7x 2min.
-That 1st one was successful, so I bumped up the next one to 5x 3min (3 min rests) at 245w for the 2nd.
-I accidentally (was following along with a GCN workout video on youtube that I found) bumped the 3rd wo to 7x 3min (and only 2 min rest), and at 250-255 watts (pushed a little harder on the last couple reps, as I was able)
-Took a rest week, and then did a 6x3min with watts from 230-250, this was my fail, but 1st intensity after a couple week break.
-I continued to push up the wattage (maintaining the 7x 3 min reps) for 3 more weeks, and 3 weeks later my last workout I started at 270w (120% ftp), and the last couple reps bumped up to 280w and 290->300watts.
-Next week I’m bumping up to 5x 4min, and then will work to 6x 4min and eventually 5x min.
I’ve seen in enough places that it’s recommended to try to maintain a VO2max workout every week or at least every 2 weeks, all year. Doing that seems like it will add to my consistency and will eliminate the need to focus a whole 1 or 2 month block on working up to the desired level during a single block in progression. But I’m new at this so, my .02
That doesn’t mean what you think it means. That number represents what you theoretically can do for a single interval if you push yourself to failure AND only if you’re fully recovered at the start of it. If you want to repeat the interval you need a lot of time to recover between intervals. You need to recharge your anaerobic system (FRC). Those rest periods were not long enough to fully recover. In a typical VO2MAX workout each interval would be a smaller fraction of your power duration for that power or they would be spaced out further to allow more complete recovery.
In short, your inability to come close to finishing them is proof that you’re target is way off (Combination of intensity, duration, rest, repetitions).
Also, the model probably doesn’t have enough input significantly above FTP to predict that well, since you’ve been avoiding VO2MAX. Garbage in, garbage out.
Power doesn’t really matter at all.
Many coaches recommend training at around 90 to 95 percent of your maximum heart rate. This is an occasional when HR is more important to ensure you are training at an appropriate level.
At the risk of using another English phrase…many ways to skin a cat.
With Vo2max, both central (heart, lungs, blood) and peripheral (muscle extraction of oxygen) physiological functions are at play. The type of work @PattyP is doing is looking to raise Vo2 more via workouts that focus on central adaptions, whereas the other way could be to do workouts that focus more on peripheral adaptations. Both central and peripheral functions can be limiters to ones Vo2max.
I would suggest a well rounded plan incudes both types of work, either as a mixed block or dedicate blocks to accommodate depending on what you are trying to achieve. This is worth a read…
Yes i know the two types and indeed working now on central adapation.
What kind of workouts is more for peripheral adapation? More based on power instead of high cadans?
