Yea I definitey take as much rest as I want/need. This ends up being maybe 1:2 work/rest, maybe a little longer on the later intervals.
I think i just kind of blew my wad on the first interval yesterday. Started out with like 30 seconds at 450 watts (ftp maybe 275?), then finished the 4’ at 360 average, or ~131%. Way past repeatable for me haha.
I think I hung on well enough to make the rest of the workout worthwhile…I managed to get around 90% max hr and 110-115% ftp on the intervals…but this was way harder than other ones where I didnt go flat out the first interval.
Definitely better to use previous performance at a relevant duration rather than a percentage of FTP for supra-threshold work.
The other rule of thumb is to use 95% of the power PR for whatever interval duration you’re using as a start point. So if I was doing 4 × 4 mins I’d ballpark them at 285 watts as that’s 95% of my best 4 mimute power of 300w.
Going all out is a Wingate test. If I did something like that for 3 mins, I’d be destroyed for the next 30 mins. Maybe rest of the day.
It’s fine / normal for the power to decline over the course of successive intervals, but not excessively so.
By the way - this is the reason I do all my vo2max workouts in erg. Prevent me from going too hard on the first interval. My intervals have declining power targets.
I wouldn’t go all out on the first one; you’re trying to maximize time at max ventilatory intake and high contractile rate. So maximizing power on the first one defeats the purpose, assuming your goal is to train max heart stroke volume.
I’ve said that for MAP-style intervals for masters athletes. I’ll have them do 3 min repeats around 5 min power. I usually give a very broad range for VO2max proper, and tell people “max repeatable” and as long as they’re above threshold for the duration, keep pushing high cadence and max vent.
That’s probably due to the long 45sec rest between reps. Maybe try something like 40 on/ 20 off for 10 reps per set to keep the HR up. Should give you more time at VO2Max.
You can do efforts with pre-determined power like this as long as you’re always trying to improve power and then drop it a little as you fatigue through the session, and then do more next time. Remember the intensity is the progression with vo2max. I have two clients who prefer to do this rather than my usual style of max across the board. It works fine as long as you have the sense to drop the power a bit for later reps, which they do, plus I’m coaching them through so I’d hope so anyway. But you need to make sure that you’re progressing each session. So IMO the erg-style approach working takes a bit more mental bandwidth and discipline to keep effective for this reason. I personally feel like it’s easier to just send it, which is the approach I recommend and take with the vast majority of folks.
Technically not true. Breathing is just a proxy for being in the right range physiologically. As for maximizing power on the first rep defeating the purpose, also not strictly true. For the first session when you’re fresh sure most folks need to hold back. But after there’s a little accumulated fatigue, let 'er rip.
3 week post block update. Did a 4x4 workout on the trainer last night to avoid the cm diameter hail outside. I felt like absolute garbage during the warmup and almost quit. But decided to stick with it. But held 4 minute intervals at the same power I did my outside 3.5 minutes a few weeks back (and I did way more outside than inside during the block). I struggled a little on the first one but felt much better on the last 3. HR was a little lower too so seems like all good signs.
So I’m 2 workouts in my 2 Week VO2 block, first workout went like absolute shit couldn’t generate any power even though I was pretty fresh but nothing seemed to work. Planned was a 4x5 min workout but Power just didn’t come and 2nd interval was a total fail and the last one I also had to take a break…
Today was better did 5x4 min decided to have 5 min rest or more if needed, Power was still nothing to write home about, but I also seem to have a drop off when going over 105 rpm at least that what I feel, but HR, RPE and Breathing indicated that it should be a good VO2 stimulus, the 3 middle Intervals where somewhat hard starts, for the last one I didn’t have that in me…
Hey guys just had a question on VO2 progression, recently did Inspiration, wondering if from here I should be focused on time in zone at 106%, reducing recovery between intervals or increasing intensity.
Something like Saddle Mountain would cut the recovery time, Log In to TrainerRoad
Ochsenhorn would maximize TIZ Log In to TrainerRoad
While Mount Deborah -1 would increase intensity Log In to TrainerRoad
What should be priortized? In terms of SS it was very much keep the intensity at 90% and just keep increasing TIZ, wondering if I should be looking at reducing recovery time or increasing intensity though in terms of VO2 progression.
First workout is always rough if you’re coming off of something like SST or threshold. Sometimes I have my guys do 30/15s prior to expose them to high power for long periods, but usually that first one is pretty awful no matter what. Nice work.
Race gravel, road, XCO and CX (fall). Seem to be best at road right now.
Raced gravel this weekend, got dropped off the front group on a major climb as steep as 18.7% in some places, avg 6.6% over 2.08kms in gravel, so loose enough I couldn’t get out of the saddle. I don’t have a power meter yet on my gravel bike but Strava est for me was 216w for 9:53, HR avg 164, max 172. The fastest guys with power did it in 7:30 to 7:50 (Top 9 on Strava, 10th place was from 2019) with avg power of 343 to 354 (all heavier than me). This was open class racing though so in with CAT A road racers, Elite XCO racers where normally I race Cat B (road) and Expert (XCO, step down from Elite, similar to Cat B or Cat 2).
My take away from this was a lack of absolute power and I want to start increasing my ability to stay seated during VO2 Max intervals (currently I start seated but over a ~4 min span end up standing a couple times for 30-40 seconds but am trying to minimize the standing).
The weekend prior raced XCO and felt like I was in the group into the singletrack, off the start but haven’t been on my mtb enough (it was my 4th ride on a MTB since start of 2023) so lost a lot of time as soon as we hit the rooty single track and couldn’t get a feel for where or if my power was lacking but my skill was.
The week before the XCO race, raced Road and placed mid pack, losing a lot of positions in the lumpy climb in the last 2km of the race. I have a power meter on my road bike. Last lap I did that segment in 2:58 with avg power of 220W, HR avg 169, max 177 and drifted through and out the back of the pack. My fastest run through that segment was on lap 3 2:50 with avg power of 208w, hr avg 165, max 177. The guys that got away from me did it in 2:46-2:49 with avg power of 263 to 379.
In that case I feel like it was a little bit fatigue resistance, if I had been positioned well and could have done it in 2:50 again I wouldn’t have been dropped.
To put the powers into context I’m 59kg, 237w FTP, 4.02 w/kg in specialty right now so hoping for a little bump come July. If I hit 240W I’m buying white road shoes to celebrate!
I definitely lack in absolute power with a FTP of 237 (weight 59kg). Reading through some other threads I’ve seen some suggestion that if you lack cardio respiratory fitness you are more likely to need to stand and rely more on your muscles, I think I have a bit of this as I can’t do my full VO2 Max intervals with out standing for a little bit. This messed me up on that steep gravel climb in the areas ~19% I really wanted to stand but the rear tire would immediately break traction. I also find even since getting away from ERG mode (which I used exclusively for all my structured training until about 2 months ago) I still have a tendency to grind through the intervals at times to keep the power up, except no ERG death spiral now but still will dip into the mid 70s at times even if I might start out avg mid 90s for intervals.
Heres what I did with Inspiration last week, it was hard but I felt like I could have done more
I skip a lot of the fun group rides in the sunshine to sit on my trainer and do ‘structured training’ with the hope that its more beneficial so do tend to wring my hands a bit wondering if there is something I should be doing differently. In the past I always did the TR assigned VO2 workouts like Goat Citadel, Sleeping Beauty, Grassy Ridge which have higher power, with short recovery but from what I’ve heard, as they were <3min intervals they werent as helpful for VO2 Max and I feel like I need 5 min power more than 1 min power right now.
Based on what you describe, I’d have you do higher power intervals. You could benefit from stuff like 30/15s which force you to work at even higher power than a straight 5min interval and can get you working at that power for like 8 min at a time (with the breaks in there). Also, many athletes benefit from higher cadence when doing higher power, rather than the other way around. Especially if you’re doing group rides with accelerations, you’re going to get dropped grinding at 70rpm, and need to be able to spin up faster to accelerate, rather than push harder.
So yeah, I would recommend higher power rather than more TiZ for what you seem to think you need, but that is, of course, based on incomplete information.
If you are trying to actually train VO2max, then you need to go about it differently in my opinion and there are a ton of posts even in this thread covering that. Bashing your head into the wall for longer and longer time a little above threshold isn’t the answer, in my opinion.
Should I start favouring this 120-125% FTP intervals over the 2-6 min 106-110% interval stuff?
Swapped in Sleeping Beauty +2 instead of Solferino (4 x 4min @ 106%). The actual 30/15s I think would be breakthrough for me and legs probably wouldn’t have been up for it given the race on Sunday (yesterday was red day).
Thanks, the whole block didn’t go that well, from RPE and HR perspective it seemed to go fine but Power was never where I would have expected it. was only 2 Weeks so 2 not well executed workouts were not optimal. Did not see much improvement until now, but it’s ok will probabl ydo another block in September, now it is preparing for 2 long climbing events that are more like TT so just doing lots of TH, SS and Tempo efforts. Will see how I feel after the Marmotte maybe I will work in some VO2 work because I pan on doing a a GF a month later that is more 6-12 minute climbs that are timed and the rest is neutralized.
