Do you know any good TR workouts you can recommend that follow this style?
Out of curiosity I looked up my last block of hard start VO2max intervals.
For a few 5 minute intervals, average HR was 158-162, max was 165-168.
My average is about 85% of max.
It seems like it takes about 60-90 seconds before my HR levels off at around 162bpm. About 86%.
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@ambermalika Thank you. That explains things and why you had such trepidation.
…and the caveats about context, heart rate and race fitness. Thanks
I really appreciate the time you have taken to reply to this. Take care. Phil
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This thread (and associated Team which will give you access to a selection of HS workouts will be of interest)… https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/hard-start-vo2max-intervals
Cheers Phil!
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Did 6x5x2 @110% today. Can’t imagine doing it @120% and have it feel ‘paced’, even with 3’ longer rest intervals.
Heavy stuff 
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Some random ideas on 5 by 5s
1 - I prescribe them by RPE
Above critical power, you get into the severe and extreme domains where the quantifier is W’ (work capacity above CP measured in KJoules) and this is an individual parameter that is not correlated to the therehold value. This means prescription of target powers as a percentage of FTP (and erg mode usage) will probably get to sub optimal execution (either the athlete burns out or stays below the best bang for the workout’s training stress buck)
2 - I use time at or above 91% of HRMax as a proxy of time around VO2MAX in order to understand if the athlete did work at the required level
3 - In order to maximize the training stimula, the first rest is just 1:30, the second is 2:00 and the final two are 2:50. For the whole workout, this strategy results in a couple of minutes if not a little more at or above those 91% of HRMax
4 - Following a well supported opinion from Empirical Cycling, I encourage the athletes to perform the workout at least 1 gear lighter than the natural selected gear. The increase in cadence tends to increase RPE and to impact the power production negatively at this effort level which also supports the idea that this is not a workout to be prescibed by percentage of FTP.
Anyway… a lot of assumptions here and maybe I am being over zealous but this workout is so hard that I think the athletes deserve some optimization effort from me…
In the example below, my athlete clearly mispaced the first 2 intervals and the final 3 were a long and painful grind… 
Pah, 90% HR for 40min? Come to my XC world. 
Generally the whole bloody race is >95% MHR. No one can say I don’t try!
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It should start out very hard but by the end, the last minute or 2 of the last interval or 2 are probably pretty close to all out.
I think we might define “all-out” differently but in general yes should be very very hard
I was considering this as well… as listening to a recent podcast made me think about this topic… as in what is my w’?
5 minutes 50 watts over Cp is 15 Kj. I know that i would be close to already fully tapped, and i don’t think even rep #2 would be possible. Looks like that athlete has a Cp around 270-275 watts and w’ was exhausted after rep 2.
I personally just got through doing some 5 minute sets, but just 4 reps, with 5 min rest intervals and my target power was only about 5-10 watts above Cp. I think my w’ is quite low right now, having not done any suprathreshold intervals since last summer.
the best gains!
Something like Mansfield +1
I have a loop near my house thats almost exactly 5 min uphill (if I go around 125%), 3.5min soft pedaling down. Perfect for 5x5s. My bread and butter workout during the warmer months.
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It’s not so much about % of FTP.
To my understanding, any length VO2 max interval is best thought of as a mini time trial: You are trying to find the hardest sustainable effort you can do for the duration of the interval(s). So naturally, that power tends to be less for an 8min VO2 max when compared to a 3min interval length.
In either case, you’re trying to find the maximum sustainable effort you can muster, that will elicit the “VO2 Max condition” - breathing like a fish out of water! That’s also why these efforts are best done in “resistance mode”
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- This, plus “… the ability to hit all planned intervals at the same intensity.” It’s best to avoid a decline in the latter intervals, and part of what makes “setting your own levels” a bit of a trick.
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Absolutely!
A stop watch and a hill outside is all that’s required!
You can judge if you’re fading by seeing if you reach the same point on the uphill at each interval! No need to stare at power or hear rate while doing them.
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Right now it seems to be about 12 kj, but i have seen it around 18-19 kj on intervals.icu from years in that i had done a lot more suprathreshold work.
I’m pretty sure if you deplete all of your reserve in the first rep you’re a gonner in the rest unless you’ve got some incredible vo2 like mvdp.
This is what I like to see! Hardest race of 2021 was day 2 at Trek CX Cup on my single speed.
Whenever I see a race file from someone in an XC or CX race and there isn’t at least 75% of the time spent at Z6 or above I secretly judge them and think they weren’t giving it 100%.
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Amen…whenever I think I know my max HR, I do another CX race and learn it is actually higher! Think max last time was 196 (at age 39) with average of 189 over the 60 min race!
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