VO2max training in TR effective? – power vs heart rate

I mean you can also just try some harder short:short ones - as above different people respond differently, if you find the lower PL ones aren’t taxing enough, just select a Stretch or Breakthrough :slight_smile:

The issue I find is that e.g., a PL 5 short:short is much easier for me than a PL 5 with long intervals, so if you switch VO2 workout style mid-block you might find you get some issues with the workouts suddenly being way too hard (although of course you can then just pick an easier alternate as well).

Thanks for the tip. Better than cracking in ERG mode I guess.:sob:

This ^^^^^

If I do 30/15s at same peak power as 30/30s I’ll hit 90-92% max HR during the sets and it pretty much looks like a continuous interval if you look at heart rate trace after. With 30/30s I recover pretty well between the on intervals and the heart rate doesn’t climb above 85% and trace looks more saw tooth.

Just to state the option, if people want to use ERG but want lower power targets, reducing the Workout Intensity setting is there to use. Lowering it will reduce the power target in ERG, akin to what can be done in Res/Std modes and missing the target.

It still holds you to the reduced power and can lead to the death spiral if you are on the edge. So Res/Std still has plenty of reasons to be used for stuff like this, but ERG is not just locked at 100% as implied in many cases. Drop that WI setting and carry on in ERG if that’s your preference.

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So doing it in resistance mode IMHO opinion is better for a few reasons.

  1. Spiral of death is the worse, and when it comes mid-VO2 it is terrible.

  2. If the goal is maximum oxygen uptake, say you went out hard at the beginning, but are fading at the end, even with “threshold watts” you probably struggling to hold on and eliciting the requisite stress on the body.

  3. You don’t want ERG mode to dictate how hard you are going. If you are really fresh, it might take going harder than the target watts to elicit the proper response. Sometimes, it might take less than the target watts. Either way, the point is to tax the system rather than hit a certain number. The target watts may be a good reference point, especially for someone who has never done it before, but ultimately VO2 should be as hard as you can go for the prescribed sets.

Adding onto the reply, it doesn’t hurt to do both micro-burst, and longer sustained efforts. Typically when I am focusing on VO2, I will do both types of workouts in a given week. Even though I personally may have more overall time spent near maximum oxygen uptake by performing micro bursts, those longer sustained intervals tend to be more like scenarios in races when trying to bridge to a breakaway, or take a late race flyer!

The OP asked a couple of questions that, with the help of Coach Chad, we’d like to address:

We checked in with Coach Chad to get his feedback for the OP on these main areas of concern, and here’s what he had to say:

Put simply, the takeaway here is that you don’t need to aggressively challenge your aerobic system to stimulate its adaptation.
You can (and you’re likely already scheduled to in Plan Builder as you progress), but you can also go a number of other ways too by mixing intensity & duration in a variety of combinations that still bring about greater aerobic capacity/VO2max.
The real evidence of that work comes 4-6 weeks later. If you’re consistent and your workouts are progressive in nature, almost any approach will bring about aerobic adaptation and performance improvement. We’ll discuss how and why.

Fist and foremost, taxing the VO2 system, or our aerobic capabilities, has to increase HR.
Aerobic uptake (aka VO2) and heart rate increase linearly, meaning, if one goes up, the other goes up. If aerobic update increases and HR follows as a result, because the heart is pumping more blood, delivering more O2, all in response to muscle that needs more O2.

To what degree and how much it increases our HR is where the flexibility in ‘VO2max’ interval structure reveals itself. When TrainerRoad assigns VO2max workouts at both high and low percentages of the zone and still stimulate adaptations, they just do it over different time courses. You can work at long & short durations at those different percentages to bring about aerobic adaptation, where for example, 125% and 105% at different durations both push us toward our VO2max.

All the while, the emphasis shifts between central & peripheral stimuli, also known as: heart and muscles. Longer intervals place more strain on the central/heart because it’s working hard for sustained durations. This is, in part, why longer intervals are considered ‘traditional’, because VO2max is often measured by a 5min all-out effort. This is why athletes may misinterpret that as the only way to stimulate improvements in VO2max, but in reality, there are numerous approaches and structures that result in improved aerobic uptake.

You can ride fairly intensely for short durations (30/30’s, for example) or long durations–hours–at breathe-through-your-nose effort levels, and in both cases, shift the strain more toward the muscles. During short-intense work, you pull on higher-force fibers (type IIa), repeatedly, and stimulate aerobic adaptation. During longer-lower work, you fatigue lower-force fibers (type I) through duration and bring about aerobic adaptation.

You can ride really intensely, actual 30s sprints, and repeat a few of them with long-ish recoveries (SIT) and derive aerobic adaptation by depleting fuels stores very rapidly–just a different type of stimulus that leads to similar, aerobic adaptations.

Then with moderate work, like 4x4, you impose longer-term, higher-intensity stress on the heart, the muscles too but to a lesser extent, and derive aerobic stimulus that way.

Alternatively, you can achieve aerobic adaptation by stressing the aerobic system (heart, muscles, blood vessels, lungs, blood itself, etc; any or all of these parts of the machine). At some point, specificity becomes very important, but earlier in training cycles, more flexibility is affordable and athletes typically prefer, and coaches prefer to prescribe, less punishing work that achieves the same ends.
This is why in your many instances, you’ll see Plan Builder include short-short VO2max workouts earlier on, while we build you towards the assigned longer structure VO2max workouts.

Finally, Heart Rate does come up with short-shorts, it just does it less obviously: interval to interval, set to set. Even in the cited Sleeping Beauty -2 example, you can see HR rises with each 30s effort and it rises with each subsequent set of 30s intervals.

The good news for the OP: they’re in a training plan that does have “traditional” VO2 workouts scheduled, the OP is just currently lower in their progression to get up towards those longer duration intervals. Adaptive Training is going to lock them in at the right VO2 workouts as they progress. Patience and trust in the process (and the science behind it) will yield the best results for you!

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VO2 and power targets are only a suggestion. For any VO2max interval/ repetition, you go as hard as you can for the duration with a constant power. if with 30/30’s for you 125% does not get you in that “out of breath” breathing rate, you need to go harder.

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I’ve always wondered, why does it take so long to see the gains from VO2 work?
I thought higher the intensity quicker the gains, like with anaerobic efforts.

If I had to guess it’d be neuromuscularly. It’ll be easier to churn out big watts because your brain can recruit all the muscles, but the growth in the anaerobic stores or aerobic system still takes much longer.

My favorite VO2 workouts are the billats workouts. But I ride it on resistance mode and will do a quick 30 second surge before the work intervals to get HR up then pop it into erg. Works nicely :grin:

I just did Joe Devel +3 and for an anaerobic workout, I got my HR awfully high during 45/15s and the 30/15s but I was on the road and found it a lot easier to tease out higher watts on the “on” segments.

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Dear @IvyAudrain (and coach Card;-)

Thank you very much for the long and specific answer!

I am still not sure what to do about this, but maybe this is due to the fact that I am trying to “optimize time” (too much, as we many always tend to try), i.e., trying to make progress faster in my time-crunched cycling life;-)

I’m sorry for the slow response, but I was out with COVID and then had to catch up a bit more than usual on an, even more than “anyway”, busy job;-)
COVID went relatively smoothly for me, but I was off the bike for a week and started slowly for the first days.

A few points that still leave me wondering if I could, and if I should try to “optimize” the system here to progress faster.

  1. I am on a low-volume plan, because I really like to have two fast group rides (>100 km, ~3 h), which also serve me to learn riding in the bunch, do formations like a Belgian tourniquet, etc. and even to do a “real” sprint here and there. In addition I still go out on my Gravel bike, which I can/do combine with endurance or sometimes tempo rides, I do some impact sports, i.e., running and badminton, with the intention of better long-term health;-)
    Nevertheless, I’d like to make progress according to the 10–15 h I spent on the bike every week (yes, I do see the dilemma with half of this spend in group rides;-)
  2. I remember doing some 4 x 4 last fall when I got my first PM, before TR or, in fact, any structured plan. I did 4 x 4 @ 120 % FTP, with 4 min of recovery between – with an FTP that was “guessed” at a value less than 10 % smaller than my FTP is now, 10 month of structured training later. They were clearly doable (but they were hard;-)
  3. Regarding your explanation

That’s exactly what’s not happening for me… In the cited example or also a Baird -2 around that time, HR, of course, increases during/after the the 30 s of work. It is also a bit higher directly after the second than after the first work interval in every set. But then it (this max HR shortly after interval) remains constant for the rest of the set… This is not as you describe it and this is part of why I am wondering these intervals are not efficient for me.

From your – in any case very helpful – feedback, the general discussion here, and my thinking about it, I will continue, or really get back into it after COVID and recovery now, by typically picking higher-PL workouts in the VO2max and anaerobic training range. (Maybe also in lower-intensity levels where this is possible tight extending workout duration.) But not at an outrageous level like going for a 9 (e.g. 4 x 4;-) when my PL is only at 3 or 4;-)

Possibly off topic here(?): Moreover, from the local criteria, e.g., the one I raced today, I realize that I need more P_max, i.e., I’ve to increase my max 1–15 s power – at the end of short races – to values (well) above 1000 W for the final sprint. Even today, 2 weeks after last COVID symptoms and 10 days after last positive test, I could easily ride in the bunch (even as a Masters3 athlete in a mixed Masters2 + 3 race, with separate ranking).
I was not even exhausted during nor after the race, but due to both poor tactics and missing power in the last 1/2 lap (last 600–700 m) I “only” made it to 6. place in Masters3.
But I could – again – not get to a better position in the final ranking because I only did max. ~850 W compared to the 1000+ W that the few riders in front of me with public power data did.

(Funny enough, directly related to the topic, I spent >30 % of the time at or above THR (18 min of 58 min race time) although even NP was at a low <90 % of my FTP today (and the race feeling relatively easy)… But I vaguely consider/it seems to be that my HR is still slightly elevated under work due to the COVID infection).

This last point is all a bit anecdotal, but it makes me believe that I want to use my time more efficiently to increase power at the higher ends of the scale while keeping the fun with cycling in general…
Curious and eager as I am, I will play the PL-hacking game and see how that goes, but stay away for now from too heavy workouts (like the 4 x 4s).

Again, the detailed feedback from the TR team is very appreciated!

PS: And I’ll also keep the advice, from others, in mind to do the 30 s intervals “free” and at a power that get’s me to my “limit” at the end of the set. Someone on the podcast (you @IvyAudrain?) kept saying that VO2max intervals “do hurt” and should make you gasp for air… something (the real gasping) I actually never really got to so far

Do Joe Devel but out on the road. That’ll get your heart rate up!

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