Not to add to the confusion, but don’t forget that the ability to win that sprint also means winning it AFTER hanging on in the minutes (hours?) prior to the sprint. I might be way stronger than you in a sprint after 20 minutes of threshold and below, but that isn’t always helpful if what I really want is to beat you in the sprint after 60 minutes, not 20.
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Yeah, that’s a mouthful and kind of my point, to have to attach all that to “all out” for someone to understand what it really means.
In the context of TrainerRoad and doing progressively harder workouts, I’d say hit the power targets, rate the workout, try a harder workout next time. One will quickly find their limits! 
Accepted, but sometimes the “best"* way to do a workout is a bit more complex than either “just f*####*#g send it" or “just do the power".
The good news is people can ask and get an explanation. Which may even be helpful! 
*opinions vary
I’m not convinced that’s true for VO2 Max workouts, especially if you don’t want to do 30/15s or similar intermittent stuff. I’d rather load up exactly the same 6 × 4 (or similar) workout every week, do it in Resistance mode, and just progress it by going as hard as I can every time (and crossing my fingers that the power goes up)
But all roads lead to Rome. 
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For traditional 3-5’ vo2max intervals, the interval wattage shouldn’t be too far away from max for that duration. That’s the reason for the long rest periods between intervals. Maybe 10% less than a max effort? I guess it depends on your definition for “far from all out”. You get an anaerobic contribution for the first few, but they should be mostly aerobic efforts and you should be able to repeat those if you have a strong base. HR can be telling. If your HR isn’t back down near baseline by the end of the long rest intervals, those later intervals are going to suffer.
I just did my first v02max work of the year this morning, 9x3’. The last couple certainly felt harder as fatigue sets in, but the first couple were no picnic. And if you get to the last couple and can’t hold target wattage, that’s not necessarily a bad thing as long as you aren’t pedaling squares and wattage falls out of zone. At that point, it’s time to pull the plug IMO.
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We called that “speed reserve” back in my track & field days. Who has the best kick at the end of the day is a lot different than top end speed.
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Something to keep in mind too… I figure the majority of people are doing indoor training and probably on ERG mode. For those sticking to ERG mode, they’re literally following the power targets, less opportunity to surpass the targets and go all out.
Personally, with nice weather coming, doing outdoor VO2 Max is quite nice to have the flexibility to say, “hey I feel pretty good today, let’s super-pass these intervals!”.
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This exactly. Maybe that is my problem. I swam and ran way before getting on a bike. And “all out” sprints were exactly that, all out sprints. 25 yd sprints in the pool, 100 yd dash on the track. They were all out. You went as fast as you could. So when that coach told me to go “all out” - that was the training experience I had. All out was all out. So it never made sense to me to use that language. On the track and in the pool coaches never used “all out” to prescribe an 800 run or 100 swim.
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I came from running too and the terminology was tough for me as well. I re-read the VO2 block thread and it eventually started to make a little more sense.
“Max repeatable effort” is a little more specific and something I think defines the “all-out” cycling term pretty well.
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I think you really only have 2-3 “all out” 5 minute efforts in you per year. Consistent training isn’t really that.
Yeah, like that. And if it’s “hard” then you could do one more…which is probably where you want to be
Joe
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I do my workouts outside, including VO2 max. I do them on a hill that is a fairly consistent 3%. There is a pub that takes me 4 minutes from the bottom. I try and do each interval at the maximum power I can hold all the way to the pub, without fading. I pay attention to my breathing, is it heavy but controlled. What is nice about the hill is that I am not staring at a timer. I am familiar with the landmarks and just focus on my effort knowing where on the hill I am.
Something I do after is look at my heart rate to see what percentage of my maximum I reached for each interval. I like to see 85% to 95% range with a preference to have reached 90-95%. Of course you need to have done a protocol to find your max HR (on your bike) first. I also look at the average power for each interval to see how consistent they were and whether I faded.
Last Sunday was a 6 x 4 min session. Last interval looks a bit different as I continue up the hill (at easier effort) to the top and down other side to head home
If I feel I may have gone a little harder across all the intervals then I will try that the following week. You dial in what is the maximum average power you can sustain across all the intervals. You pretty quickly determine what range that falls in.
This week is a recovery week, so I will just do a couple of repeats this coming weekend.
Here is Garmin’s VO2 max estimate for me over the last couple of months or so.
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Nice 
It doesn’t have to be complicated, does it?
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I wouldn’t overthink it, let AI do the thinking. I’d just do it initially as prescribed by TR and see how you get on, AI should adapt future workouts quickly if it considers that things need to be different.
It doesn’t in my view. What is also nice is that sometimes my wife will come along. We will do our hill repeats at our own pacing and I will keep going till she has had enough. Find her waiting at the top of the interval section. It is time to go home. If I get there and I have overtaken her or saw her heading back down. Then I need to head down and do at least one more interval.
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I thought for sure this was going to end with, “I finish at the pub”!
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the way I describe vo2 training is paced maximum effort. Like you want to have an idea of how hard you can go for an interval, so you’ll want to test periodically, or after some history you’ll know, for example, that 4min power is X% of FTP, you can pace your efforts to some extent, while trying to push yourself just a little harder to just to get a PB. Recently I did the following, I know my 4min is in the 110-115% range, tried a little harder on the first. Latter ones didn’t have as high of power, but the legs kept turning and HR (and my breathing) got maximal. I also do 1x to 2x interval length for rest, I think as long as you don’t rest too long, it doesn’t really matter how long you rest. Also, the fall off in my power is, to me, is a good example of why we shouldn’t use ERG for these workouts. If you’ve got fatigued muscles, fighting against ERG is just gonna make these more painful.
Happened to be listening to old podcasts on the way in and in the middle of Ep 166 (Ti’ms question @minute 38:04), they started discussing this exact thing.
Vo2max Power targets vs push beyond cuz it feels good… I got to work just then… so didn’t hear the full discussion. Give it a listen!
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For anyone here who hasn’t seen this thread - do yourself a favor and spend some time reading through.
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Maybe later in year when a bit warmer. I tend to do this session before pub opens!
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Nice find!
Chad at 40:18: “VO2 work typically you dive into it and you ramp it up very quickly and you get to a point that’s really uncomfortable but sustainable. If you get to a point where it peaks and then it just plummets, well that’s more in line with an all out effort.”
Great link. Thanks. About 90 messages in to the 400+
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