Just curious about thoughts on “controlled VO2 efforts” vs “all out” efforts. My former coach always programmed VO2 as “hard as you can for X minutes” rest as long as you need. Usually ~7 efforts and I’d take 8-10 minutes between them. The power target TR is giving me is much lower (110-120% FTP) but the rest is 3 minutes. Just curious about the logic behind one vs the other. Just for numbers, FTP last summer was probably 215ish and I would do 2 minutes at ~300 at my fittest. Now TR (with FTP of ~205) is giving me a goal of 245 but with 3 minutes rest. This is only my second VO2 workout on TR and last week’s had 5 minute rest intervals, a little nervous to drop 2 minutes for each recovery 
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In principle, more recovery is better in terms of central physiological adaptations if you can then go harder across the work intervals.
It’s unlikely you’ll get sufficient recovery at less than a 1:1 work to rest ratio. The only good reason I can see for doing that is if you have a race with two 4 minute (or whatever) hills with a 2 minute downhill section in between.
Having said that, 2 minutes is pretty short for a VO2 Max interval. By the time you get to peak aerobic uptake you’re probably halfway through the interval and so if you do 8 of those you’re only going to get 8 minutes at (or near) peak aerobic uptake. Damn good for building your anaerobic engine, though, I suspect!
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The “all out” expression is too unspecific in my opinion. I think of “all out” as being go as hard as you can possibly go… which is just sprinting, isn’t it? And if I’m wrong about that, well that’s kind of my point: too unspecific.
If I’m doing VO2 Max, I’d rather target some wattage I can do for some few minutes, get some rest in, repeat a bunch of times. Then a progression would be the usual increasing of repeats, intensity, duration, and perhaps reducing recovery time.
If I want something closer to what I think of as “all out”, TR has anaerobic workouts which are shorter intervals and higher wattage targets.
Most likely you were going well above your Vo2max power and essentially doing long Anaerobic repeats. Or hail marry intervals… etc
Lot of benefits of doing those, many of the similar benefits. However working at your vo2max has been shown to be very effective (or microburst/Tiabatta on/offs at zn6-zn7), this typically requires 2min to fully get to vo2max (oxygen use)… so short intervals you might not get to vo2max for long or until an interval or two into it. Hence for many ‘classic’ vo2 - you will be at 3-4minutes. Shorter recoveries help keep you closer to vo2max uptake… so there is less lag.
Similar to blasting hard hero threshold intervals at or above threshold… you can get most of the same benefits and have sustainable workouts and weeks/months… with doing them at threshold.
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I think there’s a couple good past threads on this, I’d need to go find them.
All Out isn’t really “All Out” in this scenario. I just did a VO2 Block like this where my 5 minute power (really all out) is probably 400-410 Right now (ask me later this week), and most of my VO2 Intervals were in the 350-380 NP range (for the interval) depending on length and how fatigued I was on a given day, with a 2:1 (long) rest to work ratio to recover and be ready to go again. But, that could be 4x5,5x4,6:3:30, or 7x3. And, that was with a 20-30s hard start, really high cadence (110+) and then a little bit holding on through the interval.
Done that way, it’s more about spending as much time near or at your VO2 Max as possible in a given workout - focusing on Stroke Volume adaptations.
There’s overlap the way that TR prescribes it, but more focused on your max aerobic power and able to ride in and your repeatability in that power zone rather than specifically targeting or training your Physiological VO2 Max.
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I do two different types of VO2 max training. One structured and one not.
On a structured workout, I’ll pick a hill and do usually 9 repetitions, in 3 sets of 3. First rep just under FTP, second rep, 110% and third rep 125%. On the final set, go all out, usually with a result of about 130%. This is for 2-3 minute intervals.
On unstructured workouts, I’ll plot a hilly route and just climb hard. The climbs are usually longer, but fewer in number. The percentage is ordinarily around 120-130% of FTP.
That combination works well for me, and my 5 minute power went up a fair bit last year (from a out 510w to 540w).
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I agree. When I first started with that coach it didn’t make sense to me because I’d say “I can’t go all out for 2 minutes”.
And I guess that is what I care about, right? My VO2 max is irrelevant to me. I want to be able to ride faster - so am I correct in assuming longer intervals or shorter rest with closer to 110-120% FTP (vs that 300W which was maybe 130-135%) would be better?
It totally depends on what you need. Do a gap analysis.
For example, let’s say I almost always get dropped on really long climbs. I usually get dropped on 4 to 8 minute climbs. I rarely get dropped on sub-2 minute climbs.
I very rarely do long climbs in races, so I’m not too concerned about those. They’re a weakness, but they’re not a limiter.
I’m not going to work on improving my short power, because I can hang on short climbs.
Which leaves me with the joys of trying to improve my 5 minute power via VO2 Max work.
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Actually, you care about both. The theory behind pushing your VO2 Max up is to raise the ceiling for your FTP, and then being able to realize more FTP Gains. So, as an example - I just finished a VO2 block and am going into 2 blocks of Threshold & Over/Under Work.
If I was doing an event that had a lot of VO2 - I’d be layering in the VO2 Block Now, then the Threshold Work, Then I’d be adding in Max Aerobic Power again in the specialty phase.
Mulitiple ways to do it, but that’s one theory.
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The ways I keep it simple is I do larger rest when targeting power increases for the duration. Similar to the person above mentioning if that time period is a weakness. It also has the possibility to raise the roof for more ftp gains (power not tte).
Shorter rest I use for actual vo2 max gains which are more across the board. These intervals are more “maximum for the repeatable duration” rather than “max out, kill yourself”.
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Yes you can. In my opinion at least. It’s just your 2-min power. That’s “all out” for 2 minutes. So going “all out” for 30 seconds will be a different power than going “all out” for 6 minutes, but they’re still both “all out” efforts
To me, going “all out” for a VO2 workout means whatever the interval length is, you go as hard as you can for that time period while being able to repeat it. So if I’m doing 5-min intervals I’ll shoot for 10-20W lower than my 5min max power. Dying by the end but not dead enough to not do more intervals.
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These may both be classified as “VO2” but are really two different workouts with different goals. @kurt.braeckel has some great posts in the VO2 block thread.
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Training theory is not my wheelhouse… I’m the opposite of you. I tend to do well on long sustained efforts vs equal competitors - but am blown away by short power bursts. The women I can hold onto for a 15 minute climb can out sprint me by 100+ watts. Does this imply I need VO2? Anaerobic? Or maybe just more easy riding 
That would be nice.
Well, if you do a 2 hour ride at 40% of FTP but do a full gas 30 second effort every ten minutes, that’s almost entirely an easy ride, right? 
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Maybe semantics, but to me all out is like 5s, maybe? If I were to go all out for 2 minutes my power would drop pretty quickly. For example, highest power ever is about 605W. Maybe that was 5s? Or 2? I just saw it in Garmin last year that I hit a new “peak power”. So that to me is “all out”. If I were to start a VO2 “all out effort” like that I’d have a power curve like a cliff. So while my avg power over 2 minutes might be, say 200W it was by no means a steady effort, vs what I try to do in VO2 efforts - which is hold a power I know I can hold for 2 minutes. Which therefore means it isn’t “all out” because I’m starting at 250W vs 600W. So is this semantics or me not understanding how to do VO2?
I posted this above. It’s not true all out - that’s a misunderstanding. It’s “All Out” in the context of finishing every interval in the workout at reasonably even or slightly declining power through each interval. Let’s say it’s 5x4minute - it’s not even pacing at your 4 minute power. You might start above that with a hard start, but by the end and NP for the interval you’ll be below that. But, you have to complete 5 of them. Here’s my most recent 5x4, not perfectly executed, but you get the idea.
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You are definitely crushing the semantics here. Maybe a running example can help (and I don’t run if I don’t have to). It sort of the difference in someone asking you to run a 100m dash as fast as you can, versus running 800m as fast as you can. Even inexperienced runners will know that they have to modulate the effort, but doesn’t mean that they can’t give max effort for both distances.
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^ Except that these VO2 Max workout typically involve multiple intervals, i.e. repeated goes. It’s never a single “all out” empty the tank, nothing left afterwards, one and only effort, like a 100m or 800m dash race might be.
So… there are multiple intervals, and you have to pace them in such a way to complete or nearly complete all the intervals, hopefully. That’s far from “all out”.
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Sure … but if someone asks “How do you do these 6 × 4 minute VO2 Max intervals? Do you try to hold the power target and stay there or do you do them all out?” …
… then the context of those questions matters.
Anyone who’s ever done 6 × 4 minute VO2 Max intervals knows that in that context “all out" means “do each interval as hard as you can (and expect power to drop a bit towards the end of each interval) but you need to do all 6* intervals while not dropping too much power across all the intervals.”
That’s kind of a mouthful though.
*maybe let you off with 5 if they’re 5 really good ones
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