Tour de France 2021 - Speculation and Gossip

Racing
71

I don’t think that DNA can be manipulated after the fact. How could you make a heart larger, make a larger vo2max, make more mitochondria?

What I tell you will happen in the future is athletes DNA doped from birth. When you see Russians and North Koreans showing up out of nowhere for the Tour you’ll know it has happened.

I also don’t buy the “Slovenia dominating theory”. It’s two guys out of thousands of riders in the world. If top Slovenians were in cycling, soccer, mountain biking, tennis, etc, then I might believe the Slovenian conspiracy theory.

For today, I don’t believe in the secret drug that only a few know about. From what I’ve read about the EPO era, they finally found what works well - blood manipulation. Testosterone for recovery and EPO and later blood transfusions for race performance.

AFAIK, they can still beat the testing with micro-dosing of EPO. There is also no test for blood boosting with your own blood. You might have to only do a little bit at a time to not make your numbers move a lot. Landis was caught because he doped with tainted blood that had T in it. Hamilton was caught because he took someone else’s blood.

72

Not so nice when you are on the receiving end right? Now imagine you were specifically singled out and multiply the attacks by a thousand. It’s enough for some people to end their own lives.

73

Omg. I’m sorry, but I refuse to validate this argument with discussion.

74

I am in no way supportive of attacking him personally (or anyone for that matter).

I am just saying, the reason he earns millions of dollars a year is not because he can ride up a mountain quickly (if that was it, he could do it secretly with no one watching), but because people care about him (in one way or another).

Just saying that being all time great will always make you divisive, which will make you more interesting, which raises his profile and thereby his balance in the bank.

I don‘t know if you feel different about this, but imho, this thread, Talking about the Potential PED abuse of a specific person, hasn’t been at all hateful, and relatively objective. No insults, no swearing… pretty tame if you ask me.

75

I don’t know. I mean, we did just get accused of attempted murder. :rofl:

76

I did not. That comment is not welcome at all.

77

I am going to hold my hand up and admit that I, as a sports fan, am totally blind to the possibility that someone is not playing with a straight bat. I do get emotional and I believe what I’m seeing. Yes, I’m that sucker who believes that because I wouldn’t do it, neither would anybody else. More fool me.

If you really want things to change, you have to be brave. Do things that might not sit comfortably with some peoples conscious. Testing on its own simply won’t work. There will always be a work-around, somewhere down the pipeline.

Ask yourself this question. Why are known and proven doping cheats still able to make a lucrative living from the sport of cycling and I dare say, many other sports? Why is Lance still able to attract sponsors to his YouTube channel? Why do people still put money in the mans pocket and attribute his name to their product?

Remove the money. Remove the chance for cheats to make money from sport, any sport, in any fashion. Once the money disappears, cheating isn’t so attractive. There are smart people in the legal systems. Can’t they find a way to stop cheats from receiving financial income via books, after dinner speaking and Instagram influencing?

If you drag these cheats through the mud and possibly, most importantly, keep them in the mud, then no-one will touch them. Yes, I’m effectively advocating that a person be humiliated and systematically destroyed, financially at least. If you want something to change, there has to be a reason for it to change. I would argue that some cycling cheats have done better from the sport financially than they did whilst engaged in it. Has stripping Lance from the TdF history books harmed him financially or as viable business proposition? From what I can see, not one bit.

Difficult to achieve in the first instance, yes. Once cheats know that there’s no golden goose if they’re caught, I’m certain that cheating will be a far harder pill to swallow. Pun intended!

78

^ I don’t agree with that.

Doping in sports has been documented since 1904. There is a memorial on the Mount Ventoux for a rider (Tom Simpson) who doped himself to death on the TdF.

The fact is, almost all of us would fail a doping test. Have you ever been prescribed a cortisone cream for a rash? You would fail. Pop a Tylenol today? You would fail. In Philadelphia (and many other places), they have found over 50 pharmaceuticals in the drinking water, and a Brita isn’t going to get rid of it. You would also potentially fail.

Should we ruin and shame you for life because of that? Are you going to decide who is doing it purposely and not?

Unless you have evidence that they did, I don’t see how you can shame these people. Lance is a meathead, but at the end of the day, he was the best at a time when everyone else was doing the same.

What we haven’t talked about if Pog is of an age where he would have a power meter his entire cycling life. With that, refinements in diet, training methodology, etc.

I’m not naive to think there isn’t doping in sports, but I also know enough that it’s likely much more prevalent on the amateur and pseudo amateur level than it is on a pro level. I can walk into any Vitamin Shoppe, GNC, Sprouts, etc. and buy supplements that either will cause me to pop a drug test or have supplements that have been contaminated with trace substances. This also isn’t factoring in the out and out cheating that happens on this level.

So with Pog. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. If he is, then he’ll be found someday. He’s 22yo, he’s going to be around a long time.

Also remember cycling isn’t the only sport in the world and it isn’t the most lucrative. That means the pros are best of those who found / discovered cycling, but not the best athletes in the world. There is a chance there is a freak athlete who would have likely made it to a more lucrative sport, but found cycling.

For example, in the United States, male sprinters who would have the potential to be everything Usan Bolt is and more go play American Football and the NFL because the payoff is substanial. Same with really strong guys who have a propensity to be lb for lb, incredibly strong. Weight classes in Olympic wrestling categories that conflict with NFL potential don’t have our best athletes… just people who are best of the ones who stuck with wrestling. Same goes for weightlifting.

With data collection what it is, I suspect it’ll be easier to identify these kids from other sports or at the jr level, and cultivate the talent from a young age.

79

Eh, I disagree with this. LeMond was huge. Wheaties boxes, White House visits, got CBS to cover the Tour. It was mega back then.

80

I am at the same point.

81

I’m this person too. Unfortunately humans are inherently flawed in the respect of being unscrupulous, immoral, self centred etc. etc. etc.

82

You can modify DNA in adults. It’s called Gene Therapy when it’s used to treat a disease. Since 2017 there have been two FDA approved gene therapies in the market.

Also, there’s the DNA that you have but there’s only a given subset of specific genes that are active at any time. This is called epigenetics and it can have significant effects. What you eat, how you train, your environmental temperature and elevation and stress all cause different genes to turn on and off.
Even those same factors in the mother during fetal development have an effect. What is Epigenetics? | CDC

Anyone using gene therapy when they don’t have a true need would be considered doping in my book, whether it’s covered by the rules or not.

For epigenetics, I wouldn’t consider it cheating as long as your not taking any medication to induce it. Normal training and spending time at elevation are epigenetic influencers. Maybe Pogacar has found some advantage here due to a special diet or training methods.

83

I’m not opposed to the existence of this thread. Most of the posters here are just talking about what is humanly possible and whether we should be suspicious without actually making an outright accusation. You included. That’s great and interesting to read.

However, it’s not all like that. I don’t know maybe it’s just me, but it seems every discussion out there about a standout performance in cycling devolves into doping accusations. It truly sucks. So when the topic of doping starts consuming the majority of the bandwidth during the TdF and here of all places, I personally just feel the need to counter the negativity, keep the magic alive. Nothing nefarious. I’m not trying to censor people (as if I could). At most just trying to prevent an echo chamber judgement because it will always be easier to imagine why someone should not be able to accomplish something than it is to imagine how they could accomplish it.

84

I like to go back to one of my favorite quotes from
a YouTuber I like to watch (Philion Fit):
”Most who take steroids don’t do so to become Mr. Olympia, they do it to become a big barista.“

(Barista being an example for an ordinary day job).

Even without money, many many people are willing to take sh!t to just be better. Better than the other dude at the gym, better than fast guys on the group ride with the many strava segments, better than who ever is relevant to them. For some it is just someone, for others it’s everyone in the world.

The reason lie detector tests were removed from steroid testing in power lifting and Olympic lifting competitions (sports where I doubt a single world class athlete is clean) is because so many people passed these tests, while being on the juice.
That’s not only because lie detectors don’t work on 100% success rate, but also, because many people started to believe they were natural. They have told themselves the Same lie often enough to believe it.

I am by no means suggesting that any specific person in this discussion is like that. I am however suggesting, that even without money and global fame on the line, there are many many people who would do anything to win (what ever that is).

I just fail to believe that this stops at the very highest ranks.

A very interesting comment that was made earlier is the effect that doping in the teens has on the body long term.
Some athletes in Olympic weightlifting and bodybuilding have been forthcoming enough to admit they used to consume steroids, but are natty now (which is like saying I used to have sex, but now I am a virgin). There are very much long term positive effects on performance of this kind of doping (and long term negative effects on health).
It is nearly impossible to detect this, and this would just as well explain how a new young generation of athletes dominates the sport now (Tadej, Ganna, Bernal, MVDP, Wout, Remco)* as would their early usage of power meters and proper nutrition.

*I have no clue, let alone proof that anyone here on this list does anything shady. Those are just names of young top athletes in cycling.

85

There is. As cold as it might seem, you’ll never see me acknowledge it either. I feel for his family and friends but a cheat is a cheat in my books.

You’ve raised some (to my mind) great points. Maybe ‘sports’ needs to cast the Fair Play Net wider? If what you say is true about Philadelphia, that’s a dreadful state of affairs. I accept that my approach ‘could’ unfairly discriminate against an athlete hailing from such an area. That said, my approach is far from refined.

The supplement companies themselves need to product control, better. The athletes themselves should stop appearing on Instagram and other social media channels pushing something that could ruin their career.

As an athlete, you can have a positive impact. No-one uses insert company name here supplements because I use them. If you (world class athlete) don’t use them, then you have no right to be peddling a companies products, especially if you have a solid and substantial reason to believe they are not up to snuff.

86

Look at Sha’ Carri Richardson. She tests positive for THC which knocks her from the Olympics, yet in most other sports, athletes are pushing CBD products, where the chance for cross contamination is high. So she’s a “cheater” while plenty of other athletes would be popped for it, but aren’t tested, and aren’t labeled as cheats.

The standards are uneven.

87

Here’s some speculation for what, other than cheating, might explain Pogacar’s results.

  1. Genetically gifted. All pro cyclists are genetically gifted to some extent, maybe Pog is especially lucky here. Pog’s coach has said that his most unique trait is his ability to recover crazy well. This means he can handle the demands of a grand tour especially well. He destroyed everybody after a week of very hard racing.
  2. Great training from a young age that has gotten him to his true genetic potential. His superior ability to recover would have significant additional effects here.
  3. The other stage racing this year has been really hard. Many of the key competitors skipped that racing while Pog did not. Maybe Pog has done better peaking his form for the first week of TDF.
  4. Being smart enough to have the tactics and skills to use his fitness effectively despite his youth.
  5. Others being off their form due to disruptions from COVID: restricted training, abnormal race schedules, life stress, lingering effects of infection, etc.
88

Without doubt. You’ve already highlighted to me factors that I was blissfully unaware of.

That said, I do stand by my post. Yes, my proposal needs significant refinement but, if you remove the financial incentives, I honestly believe you will see a drastic drop in drug-based cheating.

I know that this is off topic slightly but medical professionals who are found to have been acting unprofessionally are struck from the Medical Council Records and refused licence to practice. Yes, they could open some back street practice but more fool you if you walk through those doors. Their ability to reap financial gain from that sector has effectively been cut.

In essense, what I’m driving at is why do people want to listen to Lance? Why do you want to listen to a man who lied to the worlds face? I get the fact that he fought cancer. So did I. So did several other Forum members. I’m glad that he beat the illness. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. What I don’t get is why people and companies want to attribute something to him? Was he a great cyclist? Probably. Without all the fuss and nonsense? Unfortunately we’ll never know. Was he the cyclist he sold to the world? Nah, not even close.

Back to my initial post and first comment. I still believe. Until someone is shown to be a cheat, I’ll believe what I’m seeing. With all my heart I hope that every rider in professional racing has a clear card. I also know and accept that I’m a fool.

89

I listen to Lance’s podcast, but it’s really to listen to George Hincapie and Johan Bruyneel. Both were dopers / enabled it, but at the end of the day, the tactics and the act of riding a bike and weaponizing it in competition is the same, and I’ve learned a lot from both. Lance doesn’t really add that much to the podcast other than name.

For me, they were all doping, going back a century + and would rule almost every pro out going back that far. Just because they weren’t caught (lack of testing / testing sophistication) , not documented, etc. doesn’t mean they are any less guilty.

So for me, it’s not about who was doping and wasn’t, it comes down to who is a perceived nice guy and I enjoy listening to. I don’t like Lance because he’s a d***head, not because he doped.

It doesn’t mean I think it should be allowed, just that I am willing to factor in other metrics.

If doping was my metric, I wouldn’t follow any sports and look up to any former “great” in any sport for their accomplishments. It’s no better elsewhere though with doping in academia being as bad or worst. I can’t think of how many times I heard a peer in college looking to buy Adderall or Modafinil to help with a test. My friends who went to law and medical school have lots of stories to tell about that. Hell, some of the scientists that work in these doping labs or are doing research on it, may have academically doped themselves…

90

What about “modern” food full of steroids? Maybe that has something with new generations?