In my country (Germany) cycling died for years because of doping (Erik Zabel, Jan Ulrich and Team Telekom). The big sponsors pulled out, the broadcasting moved from the biggest national channel to Europsort (usually around 20th to 30th channel on a standard TV), and most people stopped watching completely. Now, the sport is slowly recovering in the public eye.
A bust of a (multiple time) tour winner would definitely be a set back, but it would be much better sooner rather than after 7 titles, a comeback, and an Oprah Exclusive.
If that happens again, people not only lose their trust in the honesty of the athletes, but the integrity of sporting officials. No one will believe you can ride the Tour for decades on juice and never test positive.
Iām not sure Froome was caught though. Ban was overturned. And even if you believe the test was accurate and he was exceeding permitted amounts of salbutamol, that wouldnāt even come close to explaining his dominance. At best salbutamol is a very very marginal gain or possibly a masking agent.
I think either salbutamol was the tip of the iceberg and Sky/Ineos/Froome were doing a whole bunch of much worse stuff that we donāt know about (yet). Or that they were operating at least mostly within the rules as written (not necessarily the spirit of them - the Wiggins TUEs definitely breached that). Iām inclined more to the latter, simply because I think if Sky/Ineos were doing stuff that was clearly illegal and not a grey area then some disgruntled ex-rider or ex-employee would have blabbed by now. Or at least that ex-riders would have taken the knowledge with them to their new teams and that the advantage would have been nullified by now.
Thatās disingenuous to suggest 100% proof is needed. We are reasonable people too.
Itās always easier to tear down and destroy someoneās life then it was for that person to build it. Donāt you see that you are thousands of grown men sitting safely and anonymously behind your screens while throwing shade at one single 22yr old kid? Donāt you ever stop to think, āhey guys maybe all this negativity and suspicion when multiplied by all of our voices could do real harm to someoneās dream?ā Save the witch hunt for when a positive test surfaces. Until then letās be positive, supportive and celebrate our sport.
I think the reason for this is that doping in american football or baseball doesnāt really make as big a difference.
Everyone knew Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds were juicing, but they were also amazing hitters. Roids arenāt going to help your eye or your timing.
Same with american football. It helps your strength and stamina, but football is a lot more than just raw strength.
Cycling has some tactics and skill, absolutely. But when the road goes up, those become a smaller factor compared to physiology.
Interestingly, Michael Phelps seems to not have a cloud hanging over his head around doping and I often wonder why. Not that I think heās dirty since he has the ideal swimmers body, but its interesting.
Ultimately, Tadej, and every other pro cyclist, lives in the entertainment industry. Their job is to entertain the people. Cycling up a mountain is not relevant for humanity to stay alive. All bike racing is relevant for is entertainment (and as all entertainment advertising).
And like other celebrities, Tadej has to accept he is a person of public interest in this job. Public interest that ranges from fervent supporters, to malicious haters.
While I am not saying that this is the right way of going about it, it is the job he chose (all though he maybe didnāt realize when he did)
Thatās sad man. Only people who have never been the victim of a mob can say this kind of thing, shrug their shoulders, and end with: thatās just the way it is!
No, but HGH does. See āJeff Bagwellā
And yet again, the attacks on reasonable people.
The way doping or abuse of illegal substances of any type can create an advantage may be less straightforward than it might appear.
I posted this anecdote in the other thread already so Iāll just give a run down:
- in soccer it is not uncommon for under 19 prospects to start using steroids
- a friend of mine back in high school experienced that first hand, they were never pressured into it by the team, but rather by the circumstances of scouting: he was told by team mates āscouts always pick bigger guys, pre-mature guys, so better you grow up early!ā
- especially in young prospects in football, the focus is a lot of sprinting speed and physicality, and then they need to learn how to play
Another abuse of illegal substances is pain killers. Even in higher level amateur football, tons of this stuff are consumed before the pain occurs, not after.
Lastly, Iād argue that higher physical capability will always be an advantage in sports. There are positions in almost all sports where more stamina, more strength, and faster top end speed are definitely advantages. Considering almost everyone in sprinting, almost everyone in fighting sports , and many people in endurance sports supplement their outcome, there should be a positive effect on most sports in generalā¦
I donāt think that DNA can be manipulated after the fact. How could you make a heart larger, make a larger vo2max, make more mitochondria?
What I tell you will happen in the future is athletes DNA doped from birth. When you see Russians and North Koreans showing up out of nowhere for the Tour youāll know it has happened.
I also donāt buy the āSlovenia dominating theoryā. Itās two guys out of thousands of riders in the world. If top Slovenians were in cycling, soccer, mountain biking, tennis, etc, then I might believe the Slovenian conspiracy theory.
For today, I donāt believe in the secret drug that only a few know about. From what Iāve read about the EPO era, they finally found what works well - blood manipulation. Testosterone for recovery and EPO and later blood transfusions for race performance.
AFAIK, they can still beat the testing with micro-dosing of EPO. There is also no test for blood boosting with your own blood. You might have to only do a little bit at a time to not make your numbers move a lot. Landis was caught because he doped with tainted blood that had T in it. Hamilton was caught because he took someone elseās blood.
Not so nice when you are on the receiving end right? Now imagine you were specifically singled out and multiply the attacks by a thousand. Itās enough for some people to end their own lives.
Omg. Iām sorry, but I refuse to validate this argument with discussion.
I am in no way supportive of attacking him personally (or anyone for that matter).
I am just saying, the reason he earns millions of dollars a year is not because he can ride up a mountain quickly (if that was it, he could do it secretly with no one watching), but because people care about him (in one way or another).
Just saying that being all time great will always make you divisive, which will make you more interesting, which raises his profile and thereby his balance in the bank.
I donāt know if you feel different about this, but imho, this thread, Talking about the Potential PED abuse of a specific person, hasnāt been at all hateful, and relatively objective. No insults, no swearingā¦ pretty tame if you ask me.
I donāt know. I mean, we did just get accused of attempted murder. 
I did not. That comment is not welcome at all.
I am going to hold my hand up and admit that I, as a sports fan, am totally blind to the possibility that someone is not playing with a straight bat. I do get emotional and I believe what Iām seeing. Yes, Iām that sucker who believes that because I wouldnāt do it, neither would anybody else. More fool me.
If you really want things to change, you have to be brave. Do things that might not sit comfortably with some peoples conscious. Testing on its own simply wonāt work. There will always be a work-around, somewhere down the pipeline.
Ask yourself this question. Why are known and proven doping cheats still able to make a lucrative living from the sport of cycling and I dare say, many other sports? Why is Lance still able to attract sponsors to his YouTube channel? Why do people still put money in the mans pocket and attribute his name to their product?
Remove the money. Remove the chance for cheats to make money from sport, any sport, in any fashion. Once the money disappears, cheating isnāt so attractive. There are smart people in the legal systems. Canāt they find a way to stop cheats from receiving financial income via books, after dinner speaking and Instagram influencing?
If you drag these cheats through the mud and possibly, most importantly, keep them in the mud, then no-one will touch them. Yes, Iām effectively advocating that a person be humiliated and systematically destroyed, financially at least. If you want something to change, there has to be a reason for it to change. I would argue that some cycling cheats have done better from the sport financially than they did whilst engaged in it. Has stripping Lance from the TdF history books harmed him financially or as viable business proposition? From what I can see, not one bit.
Difficult to achieve in the first instance, yes. Once cheats know that thereās no golden goose if theyāre caught, Iām certain that cheating will be a far harder pill to swallow. Pun intended!
^ I donāt agree with that.
Doping in sports has been documented since 1904. There is a memorial on the Mount Ventoux for a rider (Tom Simpson) who doped himself to death on the TdF.
The fact is, almost all of us would fail a doping test. Have you ever been prescribed a cortisone cream for a rash? You would fail. Pop a Tylenol today? You would fail. In Philadelphia (and many other places), they have found over 50 pharmaceuticals in the drinking water, and a Brita isnāt going to get rid of it. You would also potentially fail.
Should we ruin and shame you for life because of that? Are you going to decide who is doing it purposely and not?
Unless you have evidence that they did, I donāt see how you can shame these people. Lance is a meathead, but at the end of the day, he was the best at a time when everyone else was doing the same.
What we havenāt talked about if Pog is of an age where he would have a power meter his entire cycling life. With that, refinements in diet, training methodology, etc.
Iām not naive to think there isnāt doping in sports, but I also know enough that itās likely much more prevalent on the amateur and pseudo amateur level than it is on a pro level. I can walk into any Vitamin Shoppe, GNC, Sprouts, etc. and buy supplements that either will cause me to pop a drug test or have supplements that have been contaminated with trace substances. This also isnāt factoring in the out and out cheating that happens on this level.
So with Pog. Iāll give him the benefit of the doubt. If he is, then heāll be found someday. Heās 22yo, heās going to be around a long time.
Also remember cycling isnāt the only sport in the world and it isnāt the most lucrative. That means the pros are best of those who found / discovered cycling, but not the best athletes in the world. There is a chance there is a freak athlete who would have likely made it to a more lucrative sport, but found cycling.
For example, in the United States, male sprinters who would have the potential to be everything Usan Bolt is and more go play American Football and the NFL because the payoff is substanial. Same with really strong guys who have a propensity to be lb for lb, incredibly strong. Weight classes in Olympic wrestling categories that conflict with NFL potential donāt have our best athletesā¦ just people who are best of the ones who stuck with wrestling. Same goes for weightlifting.
With data collection what it is, I suspect itāll be easier to identify these kids from other sports or at the jr level, and cultivate the talent from a young age.
Eh, I disagree with this. LeMond was huge. Wheaties boxes, White House visits, got CBS to cover the Tour. It was mega back then.
I am at the same point.
Iām this person too. Unfortunately humans are inherently flawed in the respect of being unscrupulous, immoral, self centred etc. etc. etc.